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Sleep training dilemma for AP type...

64 replies

alittleteapot · 05/04/2008 09:57

DD is 10mo and still waking every half an hour in the evening, sometimes more, and will only be settled by bfing. Sometimes she gets frustrated because she's too full to eat but still wants the comfort. It's time to sleep train her as she so wants to sleep for longer but just doesn't know how. 12 till 6 is better as we co-sleep.

We've been thinking about doing a Jay Gordon style thing where you sit with them while they get to sleep (crying, inevitably.) This is supposedly the AP type of sleep training - even Dr Sears is OK with the dad comforting them to sleep through tears. My thing is, isn't it worse to sit there and ignore their tears, whereas a "light" version of controlled crying - where you go in every 30 secs up to a couple of mins, shows them you are responding to them rather than just sitting their ignoring them?

The argument about sitting with them is they feel angry and frustrated but they do not feel scared and abandoned, which makes sense, but they still feel ignored, plus you're there as a distraction. I'm thinking out loud really but just wondered what people thought before we take the plunge (don't want to but have tried all the no-cry techniques and we've got nowhere.)

OP posts:
kiskideesameanoldmother · 08/04/2008 19:49

see, i said 'learnt how to settle' that phrase is so pervasive in our thought process. I meant 'became conditioned how to settle'.

alittleteapot · 08/04/2008 20:21

more interesting stuff here. t think "finding sleep" is a good phrase. I'm so aware of my DD getting lost in a kind of dark wood on the way to sleep. Like tonight, she crashed out (on boob as always) at 10 to 7. Woke at 7.23 (half an hour in as usual) - but not like awake - crying and frustrated but still half asleep. I've now been in here 40 mins. Each time she falls back to sleep if I try to extract myself she stirs and the cycle starts again. I do think she just wants to be asleep and just doesn't know how.

I'm not convinced all sleep training involving crying is damaging to babies - it does seem to work so quickly for many and I don't think it's because the babies learn that their cries aren't answered so they stop bothering to ask. I think it's because they have been forced to find the physiological switch towards sleep, and once they've found it, a bit like riding a bike without stabilisers, they're off.

But this doesn't make the decision to sleep train any easier - because I think the necessary switching off of maternal instincts in order to see the training through feels hugely symbolic and is something that really frightens me. Sorry that sounds so woolly - I feel woolly about it. Also, I know my DD would cry for a very long time and I'm just not prepared to do that.

But one of my anxieties about the current status quo is that by giving DD the tried and tested solution (the boob to sleep) I am reinforcing her inability to find sleep by herself. (having said that I've twice this week taken her through to watch telly with us. She's very chirpy once properly awake, and then has fallen asleep on my lap - kind of hypnotised by telly - two of very few times in her life she's gone to sleep without sucking or motion.

I just worked out that I spend an average of 4 hours a day facilitating her sleep! That's already around 1200 hours which is about 50 days! I've loved the endless walks, cuddles, feeds, and don't want to say goodbye to all that completely, but one thing's for sure - a second DC won't be able to get that service!

Anyway, Kiskidee I'll check out that video and by the way thanks for offer to Cat you - I don't actually know what it means tho!

OP posts:
alittleteapot · 08/04/2008 20:29

ps, so just put her down an hour after first stirs. 15 mins on lap while writing last post did the trick. but she'll almost certainly be awake again in another half an hour...

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gingerninja · 08/04/2008 20:56

teapot, have you tried feeding and then getting DP/H to lay cuddling her as she falls asleep? Or even you doing it? Then when she wakes, give her cuddles and see if she settles that way. If not, feed. I did that with my DD to stop night feeds at about that age and it was easy for us. (I would have fed if she hasn't settled after a few minutes but she never got too upset just seemed happy with the cuddling).

We used a dummy too though which helped probably. Recently she gave it up though, We had maybe two nights of her being restless (we co-sleep) but not significantly upset and then she started to sleep better. She is however a little older and her sleep has improved dramatically since a year old.

It may suprise you and not be as painful as you imagine. I don't think you need to sit and ignore them and I don't think gentle reassurance from you or DH as she's falling to sleep would make her feel ignored. She may be a little confused for a while but I don't think she'll ignored.

alittleteapot · 08/04/2008 21:04

thanks gn, yes tried that a bit - she freaks with DP after 7pm and not interested in cuddles from me - only boob. but have to admit, we probably don't give things enough time - it's too easy to stick to what works. (Back in with her now - half an hour on awake again.)

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glimmer · 09/04/2008 09:49

Yes, very interesting thought. It seems that for many parents this is an important topic.
Thanks for he clarification, kiskid, I am not from the UK and didnt't understand the saying. It's clear now. I think you are also right about worrying a lot when it's the first.

I think in any case what counts is not to do things lightly but think about whether our actions are good for the baby. In the end, babies are very adaptable, because over thousand of years they had to be.

There is (very cientific) book by Helen Keller "Cultures of Infancy". She is an anthropologist and has studied how different cultures treat infants. One of her findings is that we tend to bring children up, so that they are optimally suited for our society. E.g. children in nomadic tribes in Africa are raised to be very interdependent. They have lots of body contact and are carried 24h a day. Their motoric skills are much more developed and they cry much less than children brought up in "Western" cultures.

In our "Western" societies children do not nearly have as much body contact, but are subject to much more object stimulation and face-to-face-time following a societal model of independency. Hence they tend to have better language skills than other children at their same age. The idea is that you need different skills to "survive" in the different cultural settings.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I agree that on evolutionary time scales it has been a very, very short time that babies are left "alone" (without constant body contact) to sleep. And while it might be good to learn early on to be "independent", I personally think that we need more "interdependence" in our society to solve our global problems.

As I said -- this is a lot on my mind...

glimmer · 09/04/2008 09:56

Sorry me again: This really carries over to other aspect of life, doesn't it? I just returned to work and have lots of issues with it (one being that I still fully BF DS and have a lot of problems expressing). If I would work on a farm or be in a nomadic culture, I would carry my baby all day long and nursing would be the most natural and hygienic thing. But I sit in front of a computer all day which DS finds utterly boring even if I carry him on my back. So from an early age he will get used to not being around me at all times (currently DP watches him, in a few months nursery) but be pushed in "independence". Sorry, now I really stop. This is going way off the topic of the OP.

alittleteapot · 09/04/2008 10:27

But I think you're right glimmer and I think that's part of my whole battle with whether to sleep train or not - that it's about defining an overall parenting approach in a way - i'm probably being overanalytical and heavy about it - i know lots of people who have sleep trained - had a couple of awful traumatic nights and then a much easier time and a much fresher, jollier baby. Having dreaded it they then wonder why they waited so long.

My latest plan is to leave things till she's one - in spirit of AP thinking. If things are still as they are by then I think it's time to shivvy things on a bit.

This thread has been really interesting. Those issues of independence/interdependence and the balance of holding onto deep maternal instincts and being realistic and pragmatic about the context and demands our culture and society. (Blimey, we should all join the OU!)

Good luck all.

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alittleteapot · 09/04/2008 10:41

a final thought (for now anyway) - someone who resorted to sleep training with great success said that it was like the baby was waiting for her mother to take control of the situation. i think we are going to leave things be for now, but i do also sometimes wonder if this really is down to me to sort...

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tassiesuzy · 09/04/2008 11:26

This is all v interesting. My DS is now 1 yr and up til 9 months could put him down in cot at 7pm and he'd be off in a flash. At 9 months separation kicked in and he's a terrible sleeper. But one issue has been he's very restless from 1-2am and finds it v hard to resettle himself into deep sleep. He stopped bf at night himself from 5 months and has just dropped the last feed this week.. sad but he's decided. He has had periods of sleeping through off and on. However, my point is, I've been seeing an osteopath as I felt there was something not quite right with him, that he couldn't settle, as he was very tired but just restless. I've been cosleeping now,dh camped out on dd bedroom, and he's been getting craniosacral treatment. It's down to the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system - the flight or fight reflex is switched on basically, and it's about getting him to relax so he can sleep. I don't know if this helps, still in the thick of it. Also took to homeopath, he's on sulphur, only on it for a week so early days, and also massage down his spine after bath. Does seem happier baby and not quite so restless in early hours. We will see. Anyone any thoughts, similar experiences? I can't leave him to cry, but would like my bed back but I can live with cosleep, just got dd out of our bed this year and she's 5. You can only do what feels right for you and what fits in with everyone in the family. And yes, in the scheme of it, for such a short time in our lives.

gingerninja · 09/04/2008 13:31

teapot, if you start a thread asking people who have tried sleep training with no success it may help you decide because I do think there are babies / children that don't respond well to it. It's not 100 percent success rate even though it may feel like that when you're the one with a non sleeper.

glimmer · 09/04/2008 13:57

Great idea, Gingernina. We tend to get feed-back from people for whom it worked and also from parents whos DC sleep 7-7. I am honest when asked, but I do not volunteer the info how often I get up at night.....

kiskideesameanoldmother · 09/04/2008 14:34

Hi teapot:
I know what you mean about if they only cry for a short time, it can't be damaging. I understand that some children don't cry for long periods of time and of course different parents have different definitions of what is long, no?

one way which i see it, and it was raised in the McKenna video and in the Kathy Dettwyler article below (based on McKenna's findings) is that long periods of solitary sleep is the desired outcome for parents. Sleep training is a method of achieving this. The side effect (can't think of a better word at the mo.) of extended solidary sleep is that the neurological system of the baby is conditioned into going into the 4th (and deepest) phase of sleep for long periods of time. When Mckenna looked at polysomnographic patterns of babies who were solitary (and bottlefed in many cases) sleepers from older research and compared them to the sleep patterns of cosleeping bfing babies and mothers, he found that they both rarely went into the 4th phase of sleep. because they are both easily aroused, should the baby experience apnea (which because their nervous system is still immature) during sleep, both mother and baby are more likely to be aroused by the lack of breathing. He is suggesting that it is during this 4th phase of sleep that SIDS may be occuring in babies who have been conditioned or learnt to go into deep sleeps before their nervous system is mature enough to always rouse from it.

Now the risk of your 10 mo old of having sids is small and it continues to diminish with time as she approaches a yr old. Sids however, is known to happen in 2yo though v. v. rarely. I am not trying to scare you, I am just passing on info I know.

The other thing which the Mckenna video raises is that touch and sound and smells are very important senses to us. He makes the analogy that baby monitors should be broadcasting our snoring to our babies rather than the other way around. All three of these sensory stimulations are deprived from a child who is not bedsharing or room sharing. There is another article I have read which states that when we are asleep, 80% of our brain is still at work and when we are dreaming, it is nearly 100% at work. So this is suggesting that there is a lot of communication going on under the radar while we sleep. It is a great article on sleep which appeared in the New Yorker and touches on sleep training, cosleeping and adult sleep.

What to me this says is that whether we are in the presence of our children at night or not, we are still defining what our relationships will be like while we are awake. I think one of Dettwyler's articles pointed out that thumbsucking, headbanging, having a comfort blanket or toy is unknown in most cultures where children are breastfed and roomshare/bedshare and that none of these activities are seen in higher primates in the wild - except for animals taht are raised by humans in zoos, for example.

Another piece of research finds that teenage boys who coslept as children were rated as better socially adjusted and more independent by their teachers - the children were all from American Forces parents who lived on the base so there was some sort of uniformity among the cohort.

I understand how powerful a draw it must be when you know a lot of people who have sleep trained and seem to have perfectly adjusted children. I have had a close friend tell me that i had to sleep train my then 16 mo old dd. One of her arguements were that well all her friends have done it, as had she. Yes, most children will on the whole turn out fine. There can be other factors at play however taht people may not agree with me where I think sleep training can play an part in the wider health and well being of a child. One theoretical example is that some children who have been expected to be more independent from an early age also had a higher incidence of depression. Now for me, I may be predisposed to depression so I will do all I can to avoid circumstances which can trigger it.

There was a thread here on MN a few months ago asking mental health workers specifically if they woudl sleep train, all except one said that they would never do it below 12 months and just one said over 12 months, if they felt they had to. To me, that speaks volumes. I have no idea however, why that thread has been deleted and wished I had saved a copy of it.

I have a suspicion it was started by someone who was trolling and didn't like the responses they got so it got 'reported'. I have had monumental back and forths on mn with a few posters wrt these topics.

Re the independence thing: a friend of mine put it this way: how can you sleep trained in order to make a child more independent. If they are not old enough to make a sandwich for themselves or wipe their own bottoms, then they can't be independent.

Anyway, I will probably leave my thoughts here. this is a monumental post and I suppose there is not much more I can share with you. If you look at the top of the page, just below the Mumsnet title the toolbar has an option called 'contact another talker' that is CAT.

kiskideesameanoldmother · 09/04/2008 14:41

I dont' think this paragraph is saying what i meant to say"

"There was a thread here on MN a few months ago asking mental health workers specifically if they woudl sleep train, all except one said that they would never do it below 12 months and just one said over 12 months, if they felt they had to. To me, that speaks volumes. I have no idea however, why that thread has been deleted and wished I had saved a copy of it. "

It should read like this:
None of the mental health professionals said that they would ever sleep train. One said she would do it but not with a child under 12 months old. I think there were at least 6 respondees but no more than 10 as i recall.

kiskideesameanoldmother · 09/04/2008 14:47

i meant to say too, that waiting another couple months may be a good idea as by then her sleeping pattern will probably be different.

10mos old is linked to separation anxiety which seems particularly bad when they are learning to walk. they want their independence but as soon as they have strayed too far in their limited experience, they scream for you. I can't see how it doesn't affect night time behaviour. I found dd very clingy coming up at 2yo. Her speech came later than her peers and at the same time it was coming was starting to realise that there was social protocols and was trying to work out things. It made her very nervous. As soon as her speech came, she was off and running again.

zulubump · 09/04/2008 14:51

Wow kiskidee thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge with us. I've had so many people tell me I need to do controlled crying with my 6month dd. HVs always seem to recommend it and I've been wondering who has actually researched the effects it has on babies. A friend said her HV told her that some babies make themselves sick during controlled crying and that this is fine. Just take them out cot and clean up with minimum fuss and then carry on! For anyone to be physically sick from crying must show that a massive amount of stress is going on inside. Surely this must be really bad for a baby. But it just seems to be the accepted wisdom that controlled crying is ok to use on babies.

I find myself getting so confused about what is best for me and dd though. My friend that used controlled crying said her son (5mo) cried for 30mins then fell asleep and has been great 12hour sleeper ever since. But I don't think my dd would give in that easily.

kiskideesameanoldmother · 09/04/2008 15:32

this is the New Yorker article. it is fascinating. it is cited as the first time that Ferber admits to being wrong about co-sleeping which he direly warned against in the original copy of his book. His current edition now has a whole chapter on cosleeping.

I suggest to anyone who wants to make an informed decision, to do her own reading and not go by what people say you must do. I have saved a load of links if anyone wants to be swotty about it like myself.

alittleteapot · 09/04/2008 15:49

Yes, thank you Kiskidee for taking the time to write such detailed posts. it really helps people like me who feel very confused. for the first 6 months of her life dd was always in the same room as me or DP - she slept on our laps for the first part of the evening
because she woke so frequently and then came to bed with us. And i loved this because the idea of her being in a different room somewhere terrified me. I have never been sure if that was more about me than her so it's great to hear about research that backs up my very basic instincts. There is defintely now a separation anxiety link with dd and I have often wondered if her sleep worsens as her daytime adventuring increases.

Zulubump i too have heard of people who did cc and it worked in under half an hour. Like yours, my dd would hold out ALOT longer.

Anyway, I'm sold - I'm not doing anything right now. I guess the thing is to try and arrange other aspects of life so that things can function as well as possible within these constraints.

Tassiesuzy i know what you mean - dd really needs motion, sucking etc. i took her to a cranial osteopath and for a week she was better only waking hourly but after the next two sessions she was the same so i gave up on it.

Kiskeedee - i've also read somewhere that more development occurs in lighter sleep but don't know if that's true.

The only thing I don't agree with so much is about independence - I watch dd growing more independent by the day - she can drink from a cup by herself now, is confident about leaving the room, ie is independently mobile, knows so much about her world and how it works. But not sleep. It does seem weird it's so hard to learn something so fundamental. And, by the way, I'm not interested in her sleeping 7-7 because as above that would scare me and I would be awake all the time checking her! But waking every 10-15 mins on occasion does seem a bit much.

Anyway thanks again for your posts.

OP posts:
kiskideesameanoldmother · 09/04/2008 16:00

the new yorker article talks about the brain development thing specifically occurring in REM. and babies spend 2 or 3 times longer in REM than adults do.

PhDiva · 09/04/2008 17:32

I breastfeed and cosleep with my ds (14 months), and up to about one month ago, he would wake every half hour up to midnight, and then about every hour or hour and a half.

I was absolutely shattered all the time, and had begun to feel that life wasn't worth living. But lately, he has begun to improve - all by himself. He is still always breast-fed to sleep, but now he is beginning to pull away and fidgit, like he wants to be put down so he can go to sleep. I see this as a totally natural development, and I am so happy I did not do cc. People who warn you that you MUST cc are actually advising you out of ignorance. Yes, in the long run you have to put in more hours, more energy and patience in this (let's call it) 'more natural' way, but I feel strongly that what kiskidee says is right - and my experience with ds proves it. My ds is extremely sensitive and intelligent for his age (70 word vocab list at 14 months), which I partly put down to the results you get from attachment parenting - and of course, partly inheriting my genes! And I bet you anything in 20 - 50 years time, anyone practicing anything other than AP-type parenting will be viewed very dimly.

kiskideesameanoldmother · 11/04/2008 10:14

at phdiva

these articles on this link is a good place to do some reading on mother / child sleep behaviour.

some of you may not want to read 'mothering' magazine because you do not consider yourself as lentil weavers, neither do i. however, they are measured articles which base their assertions in evidence based research, which if you have the facility, you can source for yourself. not a lot of websites or magazines offer that, so make your mind up for yourself on that issue.

mckennas site also has powerpoints from some of his presentations and longer articles which have been printed in academic journals, so it is a site worth coming back to time and time again, if you have the time and inclination to inform yourself.

good luck!

zulubump · 12/04/2008 14:10

Hello, I don't know if anyone is still watching this thread. I've found it really interesting food for thought. I have been thinking about habit-forming. When I spoke to a HV about my dd's need to be cuddled and rocked to get to sleep she said this was very habit-forming. She said if I didn't want to do controlled crying then I should try settling her whilst still awake in her cot (didn't work, she went beserk that I wasn't picking her up). HV said that all the cuddling was forming a habit such that my dd needed it in order to get to sleep. I guess a HV might say the same about teapot's dd's need for a bf to get to sleep. I do worry sometimes that I'm hindering my dd's development in the area of getting herself off to sleep by always obliging with a cuddle. All the books on sleep talk about babies needing to form the correct associations with bedtime (eg bath, story etc). If babies develop the ability all by themselves to get off to sleep without the need for any "training" then where does the whole habit-forming/associations thing fit in with that? I hope this post makes sense?

alittleteapot · 12/04/2008 19:54

Hi Zulu, yes still here. I've worried about the habit thing too, but since I've resolved to go with the flow till DD is one at least, I've stopped worried about that. I'll worry about habits like nail biting or smoking when she's older! But this is a very natural mothering process and they will grow out of it when they're ready. (See how I've come round since my OP? I do think part of it is resolving to ignore social pressures - I wasn't conscious of how much they were playing a part in my concerns)

In terms of the habit thing I've read all those books that say don't let her fall asleep on the breast but from day one she did and what was I supposed to do? Wake her up? So it's not a habit if it's just what they've always done is it? aren't habits external behaviours you adopt? Having said that I do worry i'm reinforcing her perception that there's only one way to sleep so in that way I agree with you. But she's so upset if i try to withold maybe she's just not ready to discover otherwise...

My biggest worry is that DD will want to bf for many months or years and I want another one soon and don't know if I"ll be one of those women who gets AF back while still bfing or not! so not sure what to do about that but still relieved to have put any sleep training plans on ice till she's one at least and will also keep trying at No-Cry Sleep Solution too.

OP posts:
kiskideesameanoldmother · 12/04/2008 22:19

the whole 'association' thing seems to be the page out of Ferber's original book that suited the ideals of the baby sleep gurus.

looking at the rocking/cuddles thing, babies have been rocked and cuddled to sleep inside the womb, long before you can control how you put them to sleep. of course they come out with the 'association' then! t'is only natural and you didn't force that association on them.

the same with the feed to sleep association. evolution has made it a natural way of helping us get babies to sleep. milk has hormones in it that relax babies and send them off to sleep. sleep and breastfeeding evolved together. babies have been fed to sleep since the dawn of time. milk is about comfort and security as well as nutrition and we all want to feel comforted and secure when we are drifting off, no?

as their brains develop, they slowly stop needing these things to send them off to sleep.

fwiw, i am still feeding my dd to sleep or rather, i feed her in bed, pop her off she rolls away and drifts off. tonight, she asked for some 'juice' first, had a sip and went to sleep without a nipple in her mouth.

sometimes, I cuddle her in and rock her a bit. by rock i mean move her body back and forth while lying next to her and she drifts off. most times now i do nothing.

some nights, i fall asleep before she does and dh jokes that dd has put me to bed.

it is inconvenient sometimes. but most times i find that rather than getting up and doing things, I just lie quietly next to her, listening to her breathe and think, I'll get up in a minute and then i don't.

if dh and I want to go out, we don't sweat routine. we would let her have a long or a late nap, go out, and she falls asleep (really late) next to her babysitter. the next day, she sleeps in and/or has a really long nap and by the night time, is ready to go to bed round her normal time. because there have never a battle over going to bed.

about the ttc. dd was almost exclusively fed till 13 months when she started to eat some semi dry solids. as i have said, she has dairy and egg allergy which probably played a role in her late weaning. AF came back at 13 months.

if your dd is getting on well with solids, i would not sweat it. after a year, most babies start to have longer gaps in feeding if not at night time, in the daytime due to solids intake and it is this gap that begins to trigger fertility. the no cry sleep solution book by elizabeth pantley has tips in how to get a baby to wake less during the nights and it is co-sleeping friendly.

zulubump · 14/04/2008 17:50

Another thought. Today I saw the friend who got results from using controlled crying on her 5 month old (he fell asleep after 30mins and slept well the following nights). She said he has started waking and crying again. So she only got about 1 week of good sleep before he started to wake and cry again, so now she doesn't know what to do and has just been ignoring his cries. That confirmed one of my fears of controlled crying, if it works to begin with and then stops working, where do you go from there. I think it becomes tempting to always ignore your baby's cries because you got results that way first time round.

We have been struggling by with our dd's night wakings by bringing her into our bed after a certain time at night (say ater 11pm). We only have double bed though, so dh has been going into spare room. But we have ordered a super-king bed, should be here in a week or two. We'll see how that goes.

I know I didn't start this thread but thanks to everyone as it's been a tricky time recently and I've been very tempted to try cc as I don't know anyone who doesn't think it is a good idea. To hear from people, even though only online, who are prepared to do things a different way has been a big support to me!

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