8 month old who screams herself to sleep...starting to feel helpless! :(

[mumof2pixies]

Im sorry if this all sounds a bit random...but Im just in need of some support and direction!!

My dd who is now 8 months, has always been a dreadful sleeper and napper. When she was about 6 weeks I tried to put her on the Easy routine, which worked wonders with our ds, but she would have none of it and would not fall alseep unless she had a tummy full of milk. But that was fine...at least she was sleeping! But since then things have gradually got worse...alot worse!

For the last 4 months or so she has no longer fallen alseep on the breast, even during the night, so she just screams herself to sleep! Its really starting to get to me! I always try and stay with her, although sometimes I have to leave for a minute if the crying gets too much, or if my son (3 yo) needs me...so I know I havent been able to invest as much time in her teaching her good sleep habits as I could with my son...but sometimes I just cant believe how shocking her sleep actually is. Shes really grumpy during the day, and Im sure its down to lack of sleep.

Ive tried not to chop and change any techniques ive used and have tried to give different things a chance to work as I dont want to confuse her...but I just dont know where Im going wrong. At the moment she has a feed close to having a nap...mainly to eliminate the hunger factor! Then we go upstairs and have a cuddle with her comfort object and listen to her lullaby music, and I then swaddle her and put her in bed...and leave the room. She'll chat for a bit, and then the crying ensues! I go in, and if shes really distressed I will hold her until shes calmed down a bit, otherwise i rub her back or her tummy until she goes to sleep....sometimes this can take an hour! I feel so sorry for my 3 yo who has to occupy himself whilst Im in with dd! I think it would be easier if she had clear tired signals, but she goes from content to screaming with tiredness in a matter of minutes!

At night she wakes up loads! If its 3 hourly then I feed her, and she will go back off to sleep okay with no tears, but if its less than 3 hourly then I rub her back or tum until she goes back off again, with her crying of course! Ive tried only giving her a little milk, but then she wakes half hourly for more and we have a snacking problem on our hands!

If we are out and about in the pram, she often screams herself to sleep then aswell! Im taking her to a cranial osteopath at the moment, but there seems to be no change yet. Does anyone have any tips...or books they could recommend? Ive read the NCSS but alot of it seems geared towards babies who fall asleep on the breast which she does not.

Thanks in advance!!!

No help I'm afraid - I await the answer with baited breath... mine is exactly the same... and getting worse! Even patting and stroking doesn't help, it makes her more irate!

She's currently on my lap, fidgeting, pulling her ears and rubbing her eyes but every time i try and put her in the cot it is a full on scream-fest.
I,m off to try again!

Good luck! At least we can give each other moral support! Im off to bed myself...might be able to get some shut eye before she wakes up...shes so all over the place Ive no idea when that will be!

In my case I have a feeling it is to do with separation anxiety... mine is very clingy at the moment, and she has just recovered from a virus, so we had her downstairs with us a bit in the evenings to cool her down and administer Calpol - I think she has got the taste for the late-night cuddles and telly!

She's still howling

But going in to soothe her only makes things worse - she goes from howling to "verge of exploding"

Good luck for tonight

My 10 month ds will not (and i mean WILL NOT) fall asleep without me lying next to him shushing and rubbing his back. We have his cot next to our bed with the side removed so he is right next to me. Anything else is a scream-fest too.

He does the fidgeting, pulling of ears nd eye rubbing too but refuses to let himself go to sleep without me.

Mumof2pixies - ds was a constant waker like yours at 8 months also but has definitely got better in the last few weeks (he no longer needs a bottle in middle of night to go to sleep, now just his dummy).

Sorry this isn't great advice. Just letting you know we're all out here doing the same, and it does get better in time (she says hopefully)!!

But he's a great fun, gorgeous little fellow and I'd forgive him anything

YES! (Tim Henman style fist-punch in the air) She's down! Gave her more boob and she finally crashed out.

As she's now had two lots of bedtime milk (both sides at 7.30pm and 9.30 pm) you never know, she might sleep through....

[hollow laugh]

Hiya,
My DD was a nightmare sleeper from day one where she would not sleep unless on me. This went on til about 10 weeks at which point she would only sleep in the same bed as me or when being held. All naps she was held and went to sleep at night with me holding her. Only when fast asleep could I put her down. She would wake every 3 hours or so and I would feed her. Then she started waking every 20 minutes and would make sure that I put the dummy back in and would wake up as soon as I took my hand off her dummy. I was falling asleep with my hand still on her face. This was NOT good!

By Xmas I'd had enough - she was 7 months. I was on my knees! We did controlled crying. I hated myself for it. But after one night of hell, that was pretty much it. She has her blips esp after being ill but usually she goes off for both naps and at night really well...

All babies are different and controlled crying is not for everyone (and HV say wait til 8 or 9 months to do it) but in our case I feel that it went really well. She certainly has a happier, more relaxed mum as a result!

Good luck with it. Lack of sleep is so hideous I think you don't actually realise how awful it's been until you've had a couple of good nights sleep in a row and realise you are actually quite a nice, rational person really!

Hiya,
My DD was a nightmare sleeper from day one where she would not sleep unless on me. This went on til about 10 weeks at which point she would only sleep in the same bed as me or when being held. All naps she was held and went to sleep at night with me holding her. Only when fast asleep could I put her down. She would wake every 3 hours or so and I would feed her. Then she started waking every 20 minutes and would make sure that I put the dummy back in and would wake up as soon as I took my hand off her dummy. I was falling asleep with my hand still on her face. This was NOT good!

By Xmas I'd had enough - she was 7 months. I was on my knees! We did controlled crying. I hated myself for it. But after one night of hell, that was pretty much it. She has her blips esp after being ill but usually she goes off for both naps and at night really well...

All babies are different and controlled crying is not for everyone (and HV say wait til 8 or 9 months to do it) but in our case I feel that it went really well. She certainly has a happier, more relaxed mum as a result!

Good luck with it. Lack of sleep is so hideous I think you don't actually realise how awful it's been until you've had a couple of good nights sleep in a row and realise you are actually quite a nice, rational person really!

So good I posted it twice.

I did a similar thing with my DD1 at 7 months, and it worked a treat. Somehow I have not managed to achieve the same with DD2 - she is made of sterner stuff! But if things don't radically improve, and once I feel she is completely 100% well, we may have to resort to another attempt at sleep training. I read the threads on here from people who are still having issues with their 2 or 3 year olds, and (while having massive amounts of sympathy for them) I just DO NOT want to be in that position.

She used to be a reasonalby good sleeper (she even slept through a couple of times at around 3 months - and I mean 7-7!) but since those halcyon days she usually wakes a couple of times a night and is getting harder and harder to settle - and nap times are getting more and more stressful.

I have a sleep document I could email to you, don't know how good it is as I haven't had time to read it all yet but it might help? If you want me to send it just let me know your email

Do you have her in a strict routine, is she getting over tired therfore unable to drop off?

Some babies do need to have a bit of a shout before they go to sleep. My DS used to cry hysterically for 30 mins before he went to sleep trying to calm him or boob him made him worse he just needed to shout.

It will get better.

how about backing off from all routine/techniques as such and do things her way? she sounds like she wants you to pick her up/cuddle her to sleep? so standing next to her to soothe her is going to drive her even more mad. you could try carrying her in a sling so she can go to sleep when she feels tired rather than you sitting in a room with her for an hour at a time.
honestly - give it a go - it works brilliantly for us.

well, i'd try a few things, but i'd like to know more info:

• stop swaddling her. this is really only to stop the startle reflex which disappears after 3 months.
• try to wean her off feeding at night. get her to eat more during the day, so just try and slowly move the balance. if she wakes up for food, hold her off for 10 mins, then feed. never go earlier ie. if she wakes 12:30, feed her 12:40. next night, don't feed her before 12:40. try to get your dh to help too - presumably she doesn't associate him with food?
• what does help her go to sleep? holding her whilst rocking? if anything like that, do that instead. singing gently?
• how much sleep is she getting during the day?

one last thought about the nighttime routine, you feed her then put her down, when you pick her up again afterwards do you try to feed her again? she might have decided she wasn't full enough and wants a bit more milk. dd does this and also although she never falls asleep with a bf usually, she will fall asleep the second time round at night. the putting in the cot seems to tell her it really is bedtime so she better get on with a good feed

Thanks so much for all your replies! Had a shocking night! She was up for feeds at 9.30pm, 12.30am, and then she woke at 1.30am, and I couldn't get her off to sleep until I caved in and fed her at 4am! She then woke at 7.30am. Im exhausted, feel like I have a newborn again! When I do manage to get her to calm down and she becomes all sleepy, she does the 5 mile stare and her breathing becomes slow and heavy, sometimes sounds like shes snoring, its like shes in a trance...but she can be like that for ages...she doesn't close her eyes and drop off, and if I leave she suddenly jolts awake again. Its infuriating!

One thing that occurred to me last night though, is that I think I am softer on her that I was on ds. Luckily though, ds was easy to manipulate and a little pat or rub on the back and he would be alseep, and if he only woke up after 30 or 45 mins of napping and I wanted him to have longer, it was easy to get him back off, and he slept through at 4 months because I would just resettle him whenever he woke without feeding him and he soon got the picture. With dd, shes much more determined and I think its going to cause some head locking battles when shes older between us both! I always thought I was very stubborn...but it seems Ive met my match! BUT, we all need sleep, and she cant win this one! I will get in the end! (I hope!)

Hi Jaminmywellies...we don't have a strict routine, mainly because of ds as often we're out taking him to preschool in the mornings, and then going to her groups etc, so sometimes she has to sleep in the pram. I thought she did just need to let off steam at first before going to sleep, but now it just seems excessive. Im wondering though whether to back off a bit, and just put her down when I think shes tired and leave her to shout for a bit and see what happens? I think Im just afraid of changing how I do things incase I make it worse! I think Im the one thats confused...she knocked my confidence a little...how pathetic!

Hi Morocco...she will fall asleep in my arms if I rock her, but then when I put her down she wakes up instantly so I haven't done that too often. I do agree that standing next to her soothing her is making her more irate! At bedtime when she doesn't settle I don't feed her again, but I might try that tonight, as you never know it might tank her up anyway?!

Hi Worthog...Ive tried not swaddling her on a couple of occasions as shes old enough now at 8 months not to be swaddled! But it seemed to make things worse...although Im going to try again. But if shes on her tummy unswaddled she just fights me off, and if shes on her tummy unswaddled then she gets into a crawling position and starts rocking! When shes actually asleep she does get her arms out so I think she just needs it sometimes to calm her while she drops off, but Im going to try unswaddling her today to see how she gets on. It would be great is she could self soothe and suck her thumb or something, Ive tried a dummy a few times but she hates them! In terms of sleep during the day, it tends to be one sleep cycle per nap (45mins) and sometimes she needs 3, with the last one of the day being incredibly difficult and often doesnt actually happen. If the last one doesnt happen then shes awake from about 1.30/2pm till bed time, which means one very over tired little lady. Im interested in your method for night weaning, it makes alot of sense, thanks! Thats definitely something I'll try.

Im thinking about trying one of those sleeping bag things. Im wondering whether it might help prevent her from crawling around in her cot, and from walking around in it when we get to that stage? Im a bit concerned about her trying to stand up in it though (we're not at that stage yet though) and her trying to walk and falling over in it and hurting herself?

Going to get some black out material today aswell as this may help. Its not overly light in her room but when its summer it might be.

Bodkin....did she sleep well??!

well i think night weaning will go a long way to sorting out her sleeping. right now she's got a very good reason to wake up: lots of cuddles and milk.

so say she generally wakes at 12 and 4. take the 4am feed and push it out by 10 / 15 mins every day. she'll get the hint. once she drops that, then work on the 12 feed and do the same thing.

once she realises that she's not getting any food at night i wouldn't be surprised if she decides that it's not worth waking up anymore.

i think also, persevere with getting rid of the swaddling. a grobag is great for this age. it will restrict movement, but that's not necessarily a bad thing!

also remember: short term pain for long term gain. it's going to be hard keeping her waiting, but just think to yourself, this time next week it WILL be better.

I agree with the grobag. Ds knows it's sleep-time when he gets into it. He can still crawl and stand up in it though (prob not what you wanted to hear!).

I'll also say about the advice re waking times during the night, I don't know about your dd but my ds was never that regular a waker - one night it would be at 11am, 3am then 7am, the next it would be 10am, 12am, 6am - you get the picture? So pushing feeds back 10/15 minutes was never really an option. He stopped waking during the night for a feed of his own accord at about 9 months.

FWIW he went down at 7 last night but 9.30 tonight so it's not always the same pattern (but that may have something to do with the drink of tea my mum gave him at 5.30 ).

Again not great advice in terms of what to do to get her to sleep - just that maybe she'll get to it in her own time.

I hope tonight's a better night for you.

good point vf.

do you bf or ff? if ff perhaps try adding more water until it's mainly water? if bf, i'd ask your dh to get involved and take her. you could go cold turkey, so perhaps over the weekend he does night shift, and gets a lie in in the morning. i don't think it'll take more than 3 nights...

Thanks warthog. You know I wanted to do all the things you recommended but ds had other ideas! Darn stroppy little thing he is

Hi girls...
I have to share this as she may never do it again...
she slept through from 9.30pm to 6am!!

Couldnt believe it! She had a feed at 6am, and then went back to sleep until 8am! Maybe she over heard me talking to dh about cutting down milk feeds in the night!!

She did wake up at 8.30pm though which I thought was too early for a feed, so I picked her up and she fell asleep almost instantly, but woke up screaming when I put her down. So I picked her up again and when she stopped crying I put her back down and she rolled over and went back to sleep! Before I would have rubbed her back and stayed with her and she would have got really irate and been up for ages I think! The only other difference was that I didnt swaddle her. I dont think its a direct result of unswaddling though, although Im sure that it helped, as we have tried her without her swaddle quite a few times in the past. And Im not confident that she'll sleep this well again tonight! When she was 6 months she slept from midnight to 7am two nights in a row, and then stopped! When she stopped I refused to feed her between midnight and 7am as I knew she could manage without it, but I caved after 3 nights as she was waking hourly!

Unfortunately VioletFemme, you are right and dd is the same in that she doesnt wake at the same times each night! I was going to see how making her wait ten mins for a feed (with me in the room of course!) whenever she woke in the night might make her think its not worth all the shouting for. I really dont mind the waking in the night for feeds, as it only takes 5 minutes, its when she doesnt go back to sleep, or wakes up after a really short period of time for no known reason!

We were out and about all day yesterday so she slept out, it'll be interesting to see how nap times go in her own bed today!! Im going to try and bf her as much as poss today and really offer loads of solids (we're blw) so at least I'll know shes not starving if she does wake up regularly tonight!

Wow - that's fantastic - long may it continue for you!

Our nights are still pretty crap. Last night was she woke, I fed her (both sides) then she refused to go back to sleep .... lots of shouting, a nappy change, more boob, more shouting, some medised, more shouting and finally she crashed out.

She has pooed loads today though... I sometimes wonder if there is a connection between the really bad nights and her needing to poo a lot the next day

Bodkin do you think it might be something digestive with her? I hope you have a better night tonight.

Mumof2pixies, great stuff. I know what you mean though - sometimes they tease you with a couple of nights sleeping right through and you think, YES! this is it, and it's not at all... Fingers crossed for you.

Well she didnt sleep through last night, but she was better than she had been. She woke at 10.30pm, 3am, and 6.30am. she went back to sleep after her feed at 6.30am and is still asleep now! I tried to settle her without feeding her at 3am, but she was getting so cross, and when she tried frantically to latch on to my cheek, nose and chin I gave up and fed her! She was still awake when I put her back down though after her feed and she put herself back to sleep which is great! Such an improvement!

LOL at random latching. Baby language for FEED ME NOW!