At my wits end with bedtime

[smartieandsprinkle]

That's it really. I have 2 DDs - 1 & 4 and at absolute end of my tether with bedtime. Could do with some non-judgemental advice.

Bit of background. Oldest was never a terrible sleeper but we did sleep train at 7 months which worked wonders at the time & all was well with her sleep & bedtime until we moved house & she moved into a toddler bed. She then started to want me to stay with her until she fell asleep, then started waking occasionally in the night shouting for me. It was all manageable until her little sister came along....

With the youngest, she had undiagnosed silent reflux as a newborn for first 4 months. Sleep was awful as a result & she always just fell asleep in my arms before being placed in her next to me crib. During this time, the oldest started to come into my bed at night, and I just didn't have the energy to deal with it at the time.

Once youngest hit 7 months, she outgrew the next to me & has jusy categorically never slept in her coffee for more than a couple of hours. I ended up cosleeping as a result, with both kids, husband in spare room.

As youngest got more mobile, it started to feel really unsafe in the bed with her so fast forward to now, and me & the now 15 month are sleeping on a mattress on oldest daughters room floor.

This isn't sustainable for a number of reasons, but the main issue is the getting them both to sleep in first place.

I'm still having to rock the youngest (in a very specific way or it won't work) to get her to sleep, and oldest still needs me there or all he'll breaks loose.

I'm at my wits end and don't know how to get out of the mess we are sleep wise. I'm not against sleep training and I've tried ferber with little one a few times, never works & she chucks herself around so much in the cot I'm worried she'll hurt herself...no idea what methods would work with a 4 year old but I know she'd scream & wake the baby. It's a vicious cycle.

Please help. Where do I even start?

*never slept in her COT, not coffee...

Obviously I need some coffee.

Divide and conquer. Is there space for them to have a room each?

Husband needs to do bedtime with older child and you need to get little one in a cot in her own room and sleep train.

I have no idea what the Ferber method is like but I sleep trained by endlessly putting my son back down to sleep and patting/rubbing his back and "shh" ing. As soon as he was calm, I left. As soon as he was crying I came back and repeated. Lots of comfort by stroking his back, but lights kept off and no chat. They eventually tire.

Your oldest does not need you there at 4 years old. She needs to be spoken to and you explain that daddy will be doing bedtime, end of story. Ignore them and let them figure it out together.

Once the wee one has been sleep trained then you can start alternating bedtimes between the two of them.

Thank you. Objectively I know my 4 year old doesn't need me there. Its just that she makes such a massive fuss that I admit its just been easier to give in to her over the past year when things have been tough with the little one. We did go through a phase of alternate nights but she started to scream (and I mean SCREAM) for me at top of the stairs. DH gave up at that point. She'll accept him doing bedtime if I'm not home, but if she got a sniff I was downstairs or worse...dealing with her baby sister rather than her, she would crack up so yeah, we've definitely taken the path of least resistance on that front.

I also think its why I didn't sleep train youngest earlier, was simultaneously afraid of her crying and waking the oldest as much as the other way around.

I have to say I would have consequences for such behaviour from a 4 year old. I wouldn't even accept screaming like that at bedtime from my 2 year old. There's upset, and there's unacceptable behaviour.

You allowed her to dictate bedtime for years and now she's being a complete madam. You can fix this but you'll have to get tough about it.

Thank you. I think I need to hear this tbh.

I'm sure you've tried many things. I think with the 4 year old you just have to be really strong and consistently put her back in her bed silently every time and perserve. With the younger one you say they have to be rocked in a certain way. I would consider slowly changing the rock, and remove one element at a time. So if she's used to you rocking her in both arms, reduce to one. If she's used to you shushing her, leave bigger gaps between each one. Good luck.

Just for context, my son is 2 and a half and sleeps beautifully 6pm-7pm. But we sleep trained at various points and so we have a solid foundation of what's expected at bedtime. When it all goes to shit the foundation is there underpinning everything.

Example:

Tonight he went to bed as usual at 6pm. For whatever unknown toddler reason he was monkeying around. He wanted an extra cuddle after his story. Ok. He wanted daddy to come in and say goodnight one more time. Fine. He wanted to say goodnight to the cat. No. This is just stalling so that he can wander back to the living room. So I told him "you can see the cat in the morning and say good morning to him, it's bed time now." Cue much wailing.

I plonked him in bed with a final kiss and left. More wailing and shouting. I went back in and gave him some back strokes a shushing and said "it's bed time". Left again. More shouting. This time I opened the door and told him firmly without going in the room "mummy is getting very cross now. It is bedtime and I don't want to hear any more shouting."

Silence. Asleep within the next 5 minutes.

The reason for this is he knows it's not worth it. We've already put in the hard work with him so he knows we are more stubborn than he is and we mean what we say. He will try his luck, obviously. And we're getting more of that these days as we're moving from 2 to 3 years old. But every time we stick to what we say, shows him that fighting isn't worth it. It's all money in the bank to deal with future mischief- every battle is an investment!

So you've got a lot to undo right now. You need to show your daughter that you're the boss but she has years of evidence to the contrary. But you are the boss and you need to see this through. It's worth it in the long run, for your sake and theirs.

Could you let your DD listen to a toonie/Yoto story to fall asleep to? Explain as she's a big girl now she's allowed to choose a story to listen while you put baby to sleep? I've heard that advice from others.

Have you tried star chart and bribery with older one? Or listen to something and I will come and check on you, or a combination of both? My daughter can be a bit clingy and uncooperative if overtired, but she can choose better if motivated! I promised my daughter a day out just the two of us and she finally fully cracked it, but I have to admit that there was a rocky patch where both kids wanted me at bedtime and I needed to retrain my youngest to something more sensible, so she had half an hour of TV (I'd make her watch something restful and semi educational with my husband) before bedtime with me - my kids don't otherwise watch much TV so I don't feel guilty about it.

Solidarity on the reflux child- my second was like this and it totally blew me away and I have only just recovered. I also did shhhh pat with him as a baby and that helped. With both my kids over 1 they could sleep by themselves but would want a lot of input after illness etc and so we would get into a worse pattern and I'd have to consciously decide to rescue it again. What helped for me is that I sang them a made up song that repeated their name "x, x, lovely x" and listed all the people that loved them before I put them in their bed. I'd sing it when rocking to start, then I would sing it, rock them a little bit and put them down, then sing it to them in their bed, then sing it at the door. I still sing it to my youngest at the door of his room when I switch his lights off. Now he goes out like a light.

I also understand the guilt that comes into play with an older child when you have had a very difficult younger child. But it's not reflective of the reality that you love and are doing the best you can with your older one and shouldn't stop you from being calm but firm on boundaries.

can you sleep train the 15mo at nap time when the 4 year old is not asleep, so 15mo gets used to going to sleep without the rocking etc?

I agree with this. Screaming is not OK in any circumstance, that's what I'd deal with first.

My girls are the same age as your two, usually DH will put the eldest to bed, they'll read a story and then she'll listen to a podcast or bedtime story on her yoto player, 9 times out of 10 she'll fall asleep listening to that but if not then I'll swap DH once the youngest is down.
She did go through a phase of crying that she only wanted me to do bed when my youngest was born so we started a kind of rota so that she could visually see who's turn it was to do bed, if she kicked off I'd empathise with her but ultimately what was on the rota was what was happening and she accepted that.
On the nights it's just me and the girls I get them both ready for bed in the same room and my eldest will then get tucked up in bed and either look at a few books by herself or will listen to her yoto while I put the youngest to bed, a lot of the time she's asleep by the time I get through to her.
It's took a while to get into this routine and honestly it doesn't go to plan every single time but I think having a solid routine and holding that firm boundary with my eldest definitely helps. Good luck op! It's hard going when they're this little

Can your husband deal with the baby and you take the 4 year old?

Audio books worked for us - on a low volume so she has to lie still to hear it! At 4 she is also old enough for a reward chart and a Gro Clock to work (although this approach doesn't work for very stubborn kids...)

Thanks everyone.

We do have a Yoto & it has somewhat calmed things down at bedtime. I'm starting to be able to leave older one listening to it in her room while I rock the youngest to sleep....but she never falls asleep listening to it & eventually comes looking for me.

The poster who mentioned having to consciously rescue routines after illness etc is spot on, and it's what I have let slide as I just haven't had the energy or will for it until now, and have let new bad habits develop throughout my pregnancy/house move & then in 15 months since baby was born - so yes, I think what I'm getting here is that it's not going to solve itself & there's no easy fix at this stage.

I think I'll start with some kind of sleep training for youngest and take from there.