Question for those following Gina Ford's routines

[debster]

I have already posted a thread entitled ?Is 8 weeks too early for controlled crying?? and the general consensus was yes. However, I am curious as to how other GF parents a) get their young baby to sleep at the times suggested and b) how you wake them up. Our situation is that we have tried to follow the GF routines but our now 9 week old dd refuses to sleep until about 10/11pm and then finds it hard to stay awake during the day in order for us to get her to go down at an earlier time. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to get round this if controlled crying is not an option? What are you supposed to do if all dd does, when put in her cot, is scream inconsolably until one of us picks her up and cuddles her? Have any other GF parents faced a similar situation?

All advice gratefully received

Debster, no advice but I'd love to know too! GF says "settle the drowsy baby in her cot" - hah! We never got any further than "leave the hysterically screaming baby in her cot". Various people suggested:
playing a mobile / musicbox
rocking her till drowsy
putting in cot and patting / holding hand / talking soothingly / sitting nearby
giving her a cloth that smells of mummy
but nothing worked. We abandoned GF and did controlled crying at 16 weeks...

Sorry to be no help but you have my sympathy!

We started GF very early for various reasons and dd did not fit in with her sleep times until we had been on the feeding routine for about 8 weeks or so. I was increasingly stressed with this baby who did not do as GF said she would so eventually we abandaned the sleep times but followed the feeding times religiously. In order to keep her awake we left her in a nappy (warm room - I am not that cruel!), tickled her toes etc. Once she was established on the feeding times we then tried the sleeping times again and they seemed to just happen. She hated the 16h00 sleep so I went for a long walk every afternoon and she fell asleep without fail which helped a great deal with the bathing, feeding etc around 18h00. You ask how to wake sleeping baby - we open the curtains and remove her sleeping bag and then leave her to wake naturally, if she is not awake within 15 minutes we talk softly to her and she comes around fairly quickly then. Good luck.

When I tried GF I too wondered where this 'drowsy baby' was that she talked about. Our DD was simply not interested in going to sleep - or so I thought. We abandoned it but did controlled crying at 6 months. She is now on a rough GF pattern by herself.

Know this isn't the answer you want but at least you know that you are not the only one to experience this.

The sleeping does tend to happen after the feeding is established. I could never leave dd to cry as GF suggested, but I did make sure that she was alwys in her room during teh sleeping times. If she would not settle in the dark, I used to sit by her cot and talk/sing to her (sometimes for the whole of the sleep time) If she wouldn't even have this I would cuddle her in my arms, again in hr room with the lights dim and no other distractions. The 4 pm sleep we always went for a walk and she usually dropped off within 5 mins.
I think this is fairly normal within the early days, try not to worry too much if she doesn't do exactly what the routines say, if you persevere with the idea, and get her feeding at the suggested times things should just fall into place. I think it was at about 12 weeks taht dd sudenly started doing EXACTLY what GF said she should.

Wake them up I find easier... I use to just open the curtains, say a soft "hello" and unswaddle/remove cover... only a few times did DS not wake up with that... so I had to leave him sleep (as he was my first I was a bit concerned that this would screw up his routine... as a mother of 2, I'd say not if it is on the odd day that he sleeps far longer than he is suppose to).

As for getting to sleep... well I once posted this... maybe it's helpful? Let me know!

Ionesmum.... it is very difficult for me to suggest things virtually
I don't see how you are with her... I'd venture to say that changing her behaviour would not happen in one go... she needs to see "you" evolve and by that I mean the way you currently react obviously "allows" her to cry up as you say.
I can tell you how I "think" you could help things - please take this in a positive way.... it is VERY difficult to do this without knowing you.... and if it doesn't apply.... just tell me to shut up -
When she starts crying, I would hold her very close to me, sing or whisper in her ear in a very soothing way... for that I believe that you need to be relaxed and positive... any sort of anxiety or stress is picked up by babies, they are VERY aware of these moods.... this would last 1 or 2 minutes at least make sure she has calmed down, than I would put her down and leave my hand on her tummy and maintain eye contact... continuing to sing or speak.... very slowly (but WITH CONFIDENCE) I would leave her. Once you have left her she may start crying again. I would not rush in because she may JUST cry for 30 seconds... just stand behind the door and listen... think "She can do this". If you feel you need to go back in, then do and hold her again. I'd repeat what I have just suggested.
I can't emphasise enough how your own confidence in what you are doing matters.

Good luck !

this was the thread :
www.mumsnet.com/s/Talk?topicid=5&threadid=3576&stamp=020923141908

Message was on 20/09

Debster, despite desperately wanting to have GF babies neither of mine would settle early in the evening until after 3 months. Hopefully, you should find your dd will slowly settle earlier and earlier (this is what happened with our dd although we had to do controlled crying with ds at 6 months to crack the late evenings). With our dd I would try and spend the time rocking, soothing until she could settle in her dark bedroom so that it wouldn't come as a surprise when she eventually could settle herself at a normal hour.
You will get there soon.

I think it is very common for small babies to find it difficult to go to sleep on their own. I didn't follow GF (as I thought that scheduled BF would not be a good plan) but did work quite hard to establish a regular nap routine in the cot during the day. I didn't start until ds was nearly 3 months old, and was prompted by the fact that he was just not dropping off during the day any more - the world was becoming too interesting! - resulting in him being desperately overtired a lot of the time. Anyway when I first started I would leave him to cry for as long as I felt comfortable (5 or 10 minutes), then go in and cuddle him and try again. It didn't really work at that stage and I now believe he was just too young to be able to do it. I tried feeding him to sleep but that didn't work for him. So I gave up on the cot for a while and just concentrated on getting him to nap at the times I knew he needed it (after around 2 hrs of being awake) - usually by rocking him in the buggy, sometimes inside in his room and sometimes outside. I would stop rocking once he dropped off so that he didn't get used to always sleeping with motion. At least this way he usually did get the sleep he needed.

I tried again once he was around 4-5 months old and this time it worked within a week or so - I was rather more firm about leaving him to cry at this point. It was hard but I really wanted to help him learn to sleep on his own - I was finding it exhausting having to get him out in the buggy 3 times a day, and ultimately wanted him to be able to nap in the cot.

I never had any problem waking him up - he's just not that kind of baby!!
Don't know if any of this helps - your baby is clearly rather different with her good sleeps in the day - I guess I am just trying to say that it is normal to have to muddle through at this stage, as long as she is well rested and happy when awake that is the most important thing (but then I am not a GF mum so perhaps I shouldn't comment on that!) If you want her to have an earlier bedtime, I'm sure you will find a way to bring it forward gradually - as I said before, I think she'll become more wakeful during the day within the next few weeks and that will probably help.

Hi Debster

We followed GF from very early on, and I do remember having to do some controlled crying when ds was quite young, particularly at 7pm bedtime - I think he always went down OK for his naps (can't remember exactly how young the c.c. started - it's all a blur...). So at 7pm we would put him in his cot, and when he started to cry we'd stroke the bridge of his nose for a minute, saying "sshhhh" gently, and then leave quietly. Then there'd be lots of sitting outside while he howled, and then back in after 1, then 2, then 5 minutes, again, stroking his nose and saying "sshhh".

I remember having to do this for about 2 weeks, and then miraculously, and every nap and bed time from then on (he's now 1), we'd just put him down and he falls straight asleep! I'd say it was definitely worth doing it, as the months (and hopefully years?!) of benefit outweigh the horrible couple of weeks of crying. You do have to be quite determined though, and steel yourself for feeling like the worst Mummmy in the world...

Our eight week old daughter was started from day one on the GF routine. First couple of weeks went real well, even though it was a nightmare trying to a)wake her and b)keep her awake for the prescribed lenght of time. At around three weeks she refused to go to her room at the 7-10pm sleep and instead stayed up until 11pm. At that time (11pm) she goes to her cot and sleeps MOST nights until 7/8am. This is a really good sleep and we are delighted with our full nights sleep, but I feel that she needs to be in bed much earlier than 11pm. Should I try and start her off on the 7pm sleep again or just be glad that she is as good as she is???

God Coozer - sounds like how my dd was, especially the trying to wake her up and not sleeoing before 11pm. I say 'was' as we seem to have had a bit of a breakthrough over the last few days. Since I posted on here in fact - isn't that always the way! Anyway, the first night we put her in her room in her bouncy chair at about 7pm and rocked her to sleep. I had to do this for about an hour and eventually she stayed asleep. She then woke up at about 12am and I think 5am for a feed. The next night I fed her in the dark in her room then put her straight in her cot and she slept straight away waking up for feeds as before. The next night she didn't go to sleep straight away but grizzled for about 15 minutes and every night since she has gone to sleep within a few minutes. The downside of this has been that she has been waking up at about 12/1am and 5/6am every night for feeds but she does go back to sleep ok. Her daytime sleeps have suffered as well as she will now no longer sleep for more than 30 mins in the morning or an hour at lunchtime. She also feeds with increasing frequency as the day goes on. We now have a 'routine' where we wake her up at about 7.30am, she feeds, she gets drowsy about 9.30am so I put her in her cot. She grizzles for a bit then sleeps for about 30 mins, then she feeds at about 10.30am, has a sleep for about 1 hour between 12-2pm (more if she is in the pram or sling), feed at 2/2.30pm and 4.30pm, maybe a nap of about 30 mins sometime between 4-5pm, bath at 6pm, feed at 6.30pm, bed at 7pm, feed at 12/1am and then again at about 5/6am. She is therefore feeding about 7 times in 24 hours. My breasts are feeling quite sore at the extra feeds, a bit like they did at the beginning. Anyone else finding themselves feeding more frequently later in the day?

I have not read the book, but as I've said before on many threads you should follow YOUR instincts and what suit your baby. I have just read reviews of the book on iVillage and I think that it sound very strict indeed. Babies need a routein but what happened to flexibility?

Coozer, from personal and friends experience this is quite common - even for "perfect" Gina babies. 3 of us had babies who did the routines exactly except this 7-10 sleep until about 10-12 weeks. I used to keep putting dd down after the 6.15 feed, and she gradually went fro a 15 min sleep at this time to going down properly at about 12 weeks. I think it may have had something to do with them getting more active and therefore more tired. Persevere, but if she really doesn't want to sleep at this time, don't worry about it - it will happen eventually. I remeber being quite dissapointed when she first did this sleep - I'd really enjoyed our evenings of cuddles in front of the TV and suddenly found myself having to talk to dh again

Lollypop - have a look at all the other GF threads on here to either dispel some of your fears or get you more wound up about how awful us Gina Mums are

Debster - Phew! I'm glad I'm not the only one! My little dd is now just over 4 months and does the GF routine perfectly... until the 7-10pm sleep. She will sleep at 7.30pm for about 1/2 hour and that's it. The crying does get to you after a while, especially when you're tired (I've got a stinking cold at the moment).
I've managed to bring the last feed forward to 9.15pm and she's always asleep by 10pm, which I suppose is a step in the right direction (she still sleeps through to 7am), so you can always give it a go. The extra hour certainly makes a difference. I think I might try cc soon, just to see if it works for her.
I shall keep looking here for anymore tips.
Good luck

Hi again,

just goes to show we should never complain .... our likkle gal has started (since new years night) waking at 6am for a feed, after going the last eight-ten weeks from 10pm until 8am without waking!! I'm really trying to stick to my usual day routine with her and trying to get as much of the feeding done in daylight hours, but she seems less hungry?!? She woke the first two nights at 6am, then 3am then 5am last night. No idea what made her change though.

Coozer - My little dd (17weeks) has been refusing to drink the rest of her milk after the first burp, and I thought it might be because she was bored with her milk (as we've just started weaning her). She was taking only 4oz at some feeds and I was worried that she might start waking up at night.
After trying a few things, I tried her on a faster teat which has done the trick, and she doesn't dribble to much out of the corners of her mouth now either or take down so much wind.

Some help/info please.......
My DD (18 weeks) woke up nicely at 2.10pm very happy. At 2.25pm I gave her her milk, at which point she started crying and turned her head away. She would not take her milk at all, even after calming her down. I played with her for 10mins then tried again with the milk, same story. She kept chewing things. Finally at 3.30pm I have her some very diluted juice which she took about 2oz.
The GF routine doesn't mention what to do if they don't feed at all! So, do I just leave her until after 5.30 and see what happens?

Notes: She has been a bit poorly over the last few days (cough/cold). Not sure if she might be teething. We have been weaning her for just over a week and at 11am she joyfully ate some apple+rice after her milk.

Any ideas/info please?

Sorry this isn't a sleep problem is it!