Practical advice desperately needed - Keywords: reflux, ranitidine, sleeping upright, 8 weeks DS, exhausted, PND, exclusively BF

[BellaBear]

Ds, who is 8 weeks was diagnosed with reflux two and a half weeks ago, and after a hell of a night trying to get infant gaviscon down him and failing and a desperate call to my HV, we saw a lovely GP who prescribed ranitidine and diagnosed me with PND. (I am now on Lofepramine). He seems to be throwing up much less now.

Up to that point his sleeping was rubbish - rarely more than two hours night or day, and often less. We have since moved in with my parents and we are all taking turns at night holding him on our chests as he sleeps. His seep pattern has vastly improved - he will generally sleep from about nine-ish to 1 or 2 and then feed and feed again between 4 and 5am and again at some point between 6.30-8 am (all very rough times).

I am not particularly bothered about getting such a young baby to sleep through, what I am worried about is that he will not sleep on his own, whether in a cot (raised up at one end) or his chair or anything other than in someone's arms. He won't even sleep in my bed next to me.

We are all exhausted, I think my parents are doing above and beyond, and I can't see a way forward.

Practical advice is very much appreciated.

Thank you in advance

have you tried swaddling him - you can even get swaddling baby sleep 'gro' bags now. We had similar trouble with ds2 - that did help - also I put him to sleep on his side at times and shoved a rolled up towel between him and the cot side so he couldnt roll onto his front.

good luck - it does get easier.

yep, tried both. Will keep trying - there has to be a point where he will sleep on his own, because it can't still be going on in, say, ten years time.

Thanks for replying!

Hi BB

Would it help you to know that my DS (2.8 yrs now) was diagnosed with reflux at 3 weeks old. I also had PND (undiagnosed for months). We was exclusively bf and I used to syringe gaviscon in. He was also prescribed ranitidine. All of these things helped, but didn't completely cure him. Things only really started to improve when weaned at 6 months, and even then he was still sick and prone to wind etc.

Anyhooo - he slept upright on me for weeks, or in his pram (upright), and gradually started sleeping in his cot. But tbh it was always a bit of a struggle, and yes, I was exhausted.

BUT it got better and easier and you're not going to be doing this in 10 years time! DS now runs upstairs for bedtime, has three stories and goes off to sleep on his own, usually for 12 unbroken hours. He's a better sleeper than all his friends.

Hang in there. Make sure say yes to all offers of help.

Good luch

hello - i feel for you, i really do (just about to post about my six month old baaaaaaad sleeper). There is an ongoing debate about whether our dd2 had reflux or not (she wouldn't take the medication so hard to tell!) but one thing which really was a life saver when it came to sleep was a mechanical swing. from the day it arrived and i assembled it, we both loved. she instantly slept longer than ever before.
it comes with its own issues of course - doesn't solve night time sleeping but is great for naps and they can't be left alone so you can't sleep while they do (unless someone else there to watch baby) but i'd recommend trying one if you can. ideally borrow one to see if it works as they can pricy.
good luck.

thank you both

mcnoodle - how did you manage the transition between sleeping on you and sleeping alone?

re a swing - the system at the mo has someone awake while he sleeps, but we need a system that allows us to sleep!

hmm, yes, i can see that. He does sound like our dd2, i'd never heard of a baby who refused to sleep when taken into parent's bed before i had her (it made her furious!). the other thing which sometimes worked for us was the car seat. drive until asleep (baby not you) and then take them out and put seat in cot and keep them strapped in (but remove hat and loosen coat and keep room cool for temp). I still remember the blissful day dd2 slept for three hours like that.

The car doesn't send him to sleep half the time. My GP was very insistent about two things - do not let him sleep on his front and also not in the car seat for an extended time (ie a couple of hours is fine, but not at night)

During the day he sleeps ina sling (tricot-slen). When we take him out and put him in a cot or chair, he wakes up and screams. If we take him out, sometimes he will sleep and sometimes he won't, but guaranteed he will wake up as soon as we get home - actually, that is also true of the car seat come to think of it.

My GP has warned me of the dangers of meeting every suggestion with negativity, but I am finding it very hard.

I really do appreciate your input

hi ds2 had reflux from about 8 weeks old and finally came off the meds at 2 years old so I have been where you are . We found co-sleeping was the best, often he slept propped up on my chest or stomach which appears to be what your lo is doing. If I put several pillows underneath me, so I was lying propped up, I could also get a fair bit of sleep myself. We also had a 'bouncy chair' which needless to say we didn't bounce him in, but we could adjust the angle and it didn't put pressure on his stomach and he slept in that for quite a while. Nevertheless I still remember many many nights marching around with him in the sling, singing lullabies and willing him to go to sleep. It is very very draining. The carseat or buggy were no-nos for a very long time because he just kind of slumped in them and so his stomach got squashed and he was obviously very uncomfortable.

I've probably posted lots of websites in previous messages but I really recommend this site: www.pollywogbaby.com/which has an e-book about dealing with a refluxing baby, and much of the advice is targeted to breastfeeding babes. There's also a great international Yahoo! group called breastfeedingreflux where I found lots of emotional support and practical suggestions from people going through the same stuff as me.

Many many people don't understand what it can be like if your baby has severe reflux, especially if they have experienced the mild end of the spectrum, and also if on the occasions they actually see you and the baby out of the house you appear to be coping fine. I would definitely agree that if anyone offers you help, take them up on it, otherwise you will find yourself getting completely worn out. I think I was far too proud while I was going through this all, and looking back I don't really know how I managed. Your parents sound wonderful.

By the way ds2 went into his own bed at about 18 months so there is a light at the end of the tunnel, even if it's a long tunnel for some of us!

So your DS slept on you for eighteen months!!?????

Oh god.

And the secret is learning to sleep with him there?

Have posted on that site, thanks for the link

Goodness me, your post sounds exactly like where we were 5 weeks ago.

My ds also has awful reflux, would take ages to be settled to sleep, would only sleep on someone and would be awake for a lot of the night and day. We were all beyond the point of exhaustion what with that and breastfeeding.

He has settled a lot since starting reflux meds (gaviscon, ranitidine and domperidone). I find it easiest to make up 6 doses of gavison at once in 30ml of formula and syringe in 5ml at each feed- saved time and he took it better.

Getting him to sleep still takes a lot of cajoling but we've found putting him in a sleeping bag before cuddling him to sleep helps. From there we sneak him into his cot and put him to sleep on his left side with a thin sheet tightly tucked in over the top to 'tether' him down. He has now gone from sleeping in 3 hours stretches (if we were lucky) to managing 8 hours! Needless to say we are no longer exhausted and my mood has improved significantly.

Now, if someone could fix the sleepfighting and overtiredness problem, we would be sorted!

just a quick post. our baby had reflux too. second baby. only way she would sleep was on her left side (and then eventually on her front!) I know, you're not supposed to do that but helped no end. as long as you make sure baby isn't too hot.

emma - I think I will try a sleeping bag later this week, thanks for reminding me!

In the last three days we have put him, asleep, in his chair five times and each time he has slept in it for exactly 28 minutes before waking suddenly. Weird.

Tonight we are going for it and will be putting him into the chair to sleep.

We are going home on Wednesday as DH isn't going to work on Thurs (and hence doesn't need to be up and out of the house at 6am) and I am a bit scared.

Minerva - I think if we put him on his front I would end up watching him all night anyway, and still get no sleep!

oh you poor things
Would one of those amby baby hammocks or similar be an idea? My next door neighbours had a refluxy baby and they said the hammock helped - is also easier to rock with just your foot or something whilst you lie down and doze

MrsJohnCusack - actually, we've been offered a hammock, but it would mean drilling a hole in the ceiling, a big deal if it doesn't work! But definitely worth considering, perhaps if this week doesn't go well. Thanks for replying.

My DS had reflux. We were advised by the local hospital to prop the top end of his cot up so that his head was higher up than his feet. This seemed to help a lot. Also, we tried ranitidine which worked initially but then swapped over to omeprazole which helped enormously and stopped the pain associated with bringing up milk. We were also given Enfamil formula milk by the hospital which thickens in the stomach and makes it harder to bring up although I realise that you are bf. It got a lot better after he started weaning.

Hi Bella - We know each over from another thread. Congrats to your baby and sorry to hear about the reflux. Just two things: I just bought a car seat that goes completely flat -- I believe DC can sleep in it because they are not all crunched in. It has many positions, so you might prefer one where he is a bit upright because of the reflux, but still not crunched in. CAT me if you would like to know the brand. Also the Amby baby hammock MrsJohnCusack mentions had a stand and does not need a whole in the ceiling. I dont have one but had a closer look at it. Good luck and lots of strength!

can't you get a stand for the hammock instead? next door's is on a stand - the ceilings in our houses are really high

I do feel for you. DD wasn't refluxy (as far as we know) but she wouldn't sleep on her own for aaaaaaaaages and I was semi-hysterical most of the time

oh god yes second mmmMomma
someone in my postnatal group had a terrible time and ended up in the mother and baby unit just to get some help and sleep

eventually it turned out her DD was allergic to dairy, once that was sorted they were like new people - the change was astonishing

Hi again, I would also agree that it's definitely worth trying to cut cow's milk protein out of your diet. It's not going to hurt you or him if you do it for 1-2 weeks initially, but you do have to do it properly, and be aware of all the 'hidden' milk in so many products. If you work out that's the problem, it really can make a huge difference to everyone. If you have to eliminate cow's milk for the whole time you're breastfeeding, it doesn't take too much work to make sure you get enough calcium, which is the only thing you might be missing out on.

However, while this was definitely the problem for my ds1, it wasn't the problem with ds2, so it doesn't help all children diagnosed with reflux.

Just to clarify, ds2 didn't sleep on us for the whole 18 months, but he did sleep in our bed for about that long. It may sound awful if families are used to the kids sleeping separately, but I didn't really mind - at least he was sleeping .

On the meds side, we also changed from ranitidine to omeprazole at a certain point. With ranitidine, not only is the dose very dependent on the child's weight, but also after a while the drug can just stop working. It really helped when ds2 went onto omeprazole, although it was difficult to administer.

Thinking of you

so sorry you are going through this. Not much else I can add I'm afraid but I do know what you ae going through (reflux, never sleeping and PND - killer combo). We kept DS's cot on an incline (in fact still do and he has been symptom free for a long time now)which helped I think.

I always ignored the instructions on the gaviscon packet (make no sense) about how to give it. I would express milk, mix a little with the gavison (10-15 ml)give it to him in a bottle at the start of the feed (so if he DID throw up it did not bring back the whole feed) then put him on the breast.

I also tried giving up all dairy but it made no difference - definitely worth a try though.

Ensure you are an EXPERT an winding! Sometime I almost took as long to get DS's wind up as I did feeding him (and DS was a marthon feeder).

In terms of the sleep pattern - you are probably trying all the right things (raising cot etc.) BUT it is going to take a while/perseverence to change his sleep associations. We had the same problem - DS only knew HOW to fall asleep upright and on me, which meant as soon as he came into light sleep he would wake and need me again even if he was not actually in pain. In the end and desperate we turned to a sleep trainer for help and used swaddling and a programme of controlled crying,(we also needed another medicine to stop his stomach going into spasm at particular times of the day - merbentyl. Not a "normal" reflux medicine). I am not suggesting that this is what you need to do - my DS was older than yours when we did this, but I just wanted to say that part of the issue will be habit and association rather than the reflux directly.

You could start trying a halfway house (if this is not what you are doing already)- get him very sleepy whilst on you (or whoever) but then gently transfer him whilst he is still half awake; give him a few minutes to settle himself there. It is a gradual process. Sorry if that sounds like CC - I'm not talking about leaving him for ages (particularly if you are anti-CC), but it is a practical step to gradually changing his associations.

I think one of the hardest things about sleep and reflux (not exclusive to reflux!) is that, even when you have the sickness/pain under control you daren't leave them to cry for even a moment because you are so scared that they are suffering but the situation you describe right now is not fair on any of you. Sleep deprivation is not a form of torture for nothing and, in the end, I acted because I could see that lack of sleep was having such a damning effect on DS - not just me.

It will get better (both the reflux and the PND - the two have a strong link in my opinion). Stay on the Boards - there is a lot of support here. Let us know how you are all getting on.

Sorry for the long post!

My DS had reflux (not as bad as you are describing) and cranial osteopathy really helped him sort out his feeding and sleeping. I know people can be sceptical of it but it might be worth a try.

Thinking of you

thank you all for your very helpful posts, I will be off mumsnet for a bit (in laws house) and will be back next week!
Off to see GP tomorrow, will see how I get on.

Thank you all very very very very much, I love this website so much
xxx

elffriend - which sleep trainer did you use?