Wake window confusion - desperate FTM

[Tor88]

Hi lovely mumsnetters, first timer here with a 20 week old (a few days off 21 weeks).

We've been hit baaaad by what I'm assuming is the 4 month regression, night sleep was decent but has been hellish since week 16 and seems.worse than ever now. Day sleep went to pot around week 14.

So, I'm desperately reading and learning all I can. Trying to wean off feeding to sleep (some success if a dummy is involved). But mainly trying to grapple with wake windows in case by improving his always shitty day sleep I can help the night sleep.

He's always been a serial cat napper and most of what I've read says bad luck but it's normal. Now that he's nearing 21 weeks though, it's really sounding like his naps should start to lengthen and i just can't get there.

So my questions are:

• at 20 weeks,.does my baby now fit into 5 month old wake windows, or should I think of him as a 4 month old til we are 5 calendar months after birth?
• I've read that if he has a short nap (aka less than 45 mins) I should reduce the next wake window by 45 mins to prevent over tiredness - well his average nap is 20/25 mins then he won't go back to sleep. I usually then re set the clock to another 1 hour 45 til I try for the next nap... Should I be trying after just an hour?
• the consensus seems to be that if he's not sleeping long he's either over tired or not tired enough..I'm going with over tired because he rubs his eyes a lot, but when I try and shorten the wake window I'm having no luck getting him down, but actually if I lengthen it sometimes he'll then go down easily...?

I know it's probably a case of trial and error but I can't afford a sleep consultant and I am absolutely losing my mind... We're on about 7/8 wakings a night most of which I rock him back down with dummy, 2-3 night feeds (one of which is a dream feed). If he at least napped more than 20 mins in day I could catch up on sleep or get something done 😭

Naps are back in crib in sleep suit with noise machine or in pram for motion...

Thank you 🙏🙏🙏

Hi, I am by no means an expert - only 2 months ahead of you with my baby! - but at 4-5months, I'd let wake windows and nap lengths be informed by baby sleep cues. With my baby, we restart wake window clock regardless of time spent asleep. Not sure if that's what others do but fits our baby!

Have you tried resettling baby to extend nap? We have had a little (very slight but still, some!) success with shush/pat technique to wean baby off feeding to sleep and then used to extend naps if she wakes early.

Hope you crack it soon and see some improvement x

Thanks , yes constantly desperately trying to re settle to extend naps with very varied success. I watch for sleep cues but again don't find it super helpful, my feeling is he's over tired a lot of the time but I struggle to get him to sleep ahead of the ww

Wake windows are not evidence based in the slightest, and should be used as a tool rather than a hard rule. I would recommend checking out Possums Sleep Program, it is fully researched and was super helpful to me in reducing stress and anxiety over sleep. Cat naps at this age are completely developmentally appropriate, as is feeding to sleep, don't be scared of them because certain online sources claim them as "bad habits" or whatever. My own approach was to just do what worked, and it was way less stressful than trying to do what someone else said I "should" but my baby didn't want.

The 4 month regression was hard, and a sharp return to reality after the newborn sleepiness. The first year was hard, I won't lie. The second year is so far much much easier, but we still have moments when he's ill or teething when his sleep is shit. But you learn to cope with it. If you can't change your baby, change yourself. Adjust your own routine, use help, if you have a partner then work in shifts, cosleep, do contact naps or naps in carrier to try for longer sleeps if you think he's still tired after a short nap.

I’m with you here, my 20 week old son’s daytime naps have gone to complete sh*t, max 30 mins and won’t resettle no matter what I do. I’ve stopped using wake windows because he’s always tired again like an hour later, and if I don’t let him nap again by the middle of the afternoon he’s so cranky he’s screaming his head off. Usually he goes down in his crib but if his morning naps have been especially bad I’ll let him contact nap for a couple hours in the afternoon and just play video games - anything to get a decent nap in before bed.

I wish I knew what the secret was to getting long daytime crib naps: not having any free time during the day is killing me.

We are really lucky in that his nighttime sleep has very recently turned a corner. We had some very bad nights but this week he has been sleeping 7-7 with 1, sometimes 2, night feeds (2 only if his last feed before bed was before 6). He wakes in the night but if not hungry puts himself back to sleep. So I can promise you night sleep does get better! I did TakingCaraBabies from 3 months, which I think massively helped us deal with the 4 month sleep regression nighttime issues. Just need to work on daytime naps 🤪

Any reason you're trying to wean off feeding to sleep? It's biologically normal, if it was working, carry on?
Sleep for babies will get better, then worsez better, worse... it's a rollercoaster. My second is 6mo and doesn't seem to have a high sleep need which is annoying!

@Toddler101 I'm trying because it wasn't working, feeding at every wake up meant feeding 10 times a night with a clear decrease in need for feeding during the day... And it's just killing me, at least if I only do 2/3 feeds a night my partner can do some of the other 20,000 settles with rocking and shushing. God it's brutal 😞 I know it's normal but I seem to have been struck with significantly worse sleep for significantly longer than my nct pals (either that or I just cope worse!) So I'm desperate for anything I can do to even just slightly tweak things

@Tor88ahh fair enough. I find that my little one is so switched on during the day and has such FOMO that they won't feed properly during the day (super stressful) so end up feeding a lot at night also because it's the only time they will, reverse cycling I think it's called. It's bloody exhausting! As hard as it is, try not compare sleep notes with your NCT friends, all babies are different and it'll only make you feel worse, and take whatever they say with a pinch of salt!

Does your baby wear a sleeping bag for nap time usually, or whatever is the same as at bed time? Have you tried white noise? I've found that if I blast some white noise near to baby at night when I know they can't possibly be hungry or in pain or need a change etc then that helps extend night sleep and resettling but it doesn't half p* me off when I'm trying to sleep and baby is in the Next2Me🙈🙉. I've also found that mine gets more inconsolable if they wake after bedtime and I go in to respond to soon. The last thing I will suggest is making sure baby isn't cold, especially at night. Whilst we obviously don't want babies to overheat, they will wake if they are cold. I learnt the hard way with my first - they wok every 30mins until I upped the tog on the sleeping bag! It's all a bit trial and error, isn't it?

Good luck and sending positive sleep vibes!

@Toddler101 thanks for your reply ❤️ yes got the white noise machine blasting all night! I was worried he was too hot as his back always seems hot at night so we removed a layer but it's made no difference so maybe should add it back in case he's now too cold... Such a bloody minefield. That's interesting re becoming worse when you go in..I try and wait always to see if he'll settle and only go in when he's really bawling. I find picking him up makes it worse usually but of course feeding does help..it is. SO..HARD.

At that age mine was also feeding every 2-3 hours overnight, sometimes more. It's tough but it will get better! Every baby is so different, I also had the worst sleeper of my Bump & Baby group, two others were also bad and the other 6 seemed to just sleep independently from an early age and through the night pretty young too. At meetups they were taking their babies into other rooms for their naps while I was swaying from side to side with mine in a sling. Please try not to compare to other babies! Some sleep fine, others don't and in my experience it's all down to just dumb luck and the baby's own temperament and there's very little you can actually do as a parent to influence that. You'll just drive yourself mad trying.

@GinnyBee thanks for your reply, absolute kudos to you and the other mothers who are able to just roll with it and not try and 'influence' things. I simply am not coping with the sleep deprivation, I just can't do it, I'm an absolute mess and have gone from loving mother hood to feeling like I'm developing PND. Im gonna have to continue to try my damned hardest to work on teaching him to self settle in order to be any kind of mother to him 😞 Appreciate there's no point in comparing, I'm just always curious as to what other mothers do in case theres anything I could tweak that might help things just a touch (not expecting him to sleep through or anything, but can't go on like this)

@Tor88 how are you getting on OP?
I came across a Facebook group that you might find useful - Evidence Based Sleep Training. Lots of advice on wake windows and experts to provide advice/feedback.