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Sleep training success and my thoughts

43 replies

wellrestedmum · 09/10/2023 21:51

Sleep training - just my experience (success!) and thoughts
So I’ll start by giving my back story on how my thoughts on sleep training have evolved.
I’ll preface by also saying that I’ve had an extremely difficult motherhood journey after experiencing a neonatal death with my first child.
I’m lucky enough to be blessed with another child who is now 2.5 years old.

Before the birth of my second child, I spoke to a few friends who were already mums about the baby sleep thing. I had no idea what to expect but I vaguely knew there was such a thing as sleep training and “cry it out”, I didn’t know much more.
You hear all the time about babies and children not sleeping and I remember thinking “it can’t be that bad”, as I have always suffered from a bit of insomnia from time to time and manage quite well on little sleep. (Boy was I wrong!)

A couple of my friends said they wouldn’t ever consider sleep training, branding it cruel, unethical, unnecessary, that it “didn’t work” and how could anyone ever possibly leave their baby to cry themselves to sleep???!
I absorbed these comments - eager not to do anything whatsoever to “damage” my new baby.
Anyway, baby arrived, we got through the first few weeks where I was extremely anxious given that my first baby got an illness and passed away within the first month.
My new baby slept for 2 hour stretches during the night maximum, if I was lucky. I was breastfeeding round the clock as lots of new mums do.
The level of sleep deprivation after a while was just awful. When I say 2 hour stretches I don’t think it was even that.
It felt like I was up constantly and baby would not be put down anywhere, least of all the next2me crib we had carefully chosen. If he did go in it I could guarantee he’d wake up within 40 mins.
People kept telling me it would get better, the longer stretches would come. But when?? 8 weeks went by, 12 weeks.. 16 weeks. When were the longer stretches meant to be coming?
I think we got to about 17 weeks, perhaps in the midst of the 4 month regression - although I didn’t notice a regression as sleep was so bad anyway.
I knew something had to change.
I felt at breaking point and no longer able to safely function as a person.
We enlisted the help of a sleep consultant / sleep trainer.
I was reluctant to do any kind of controlled crying but felt I had no other choice if I wanted to survive and not dread every single day and night. We did a modified Ferber with short “check ins” every 5 mins.
I couldn’t believe it, the first night we did this he slept for a 6 hour stretch. Things just got better from there and soon we had a restful full nights sleep. My baby was no longer crying on waking all the time during the night and I was much happier and more patient, just an all round better version of myself than I had been previously trying to function on little sleep. I noticed my baby was happier in the day as well having had a full nights sleep. Naps were trained too and at last I had some space from the endless contact naps, able to do some bits around the house or go to the toilet without a baby strapped to me.

I had questions about the sleep training so decided to go digging and researching myself. Had I just “broken” my baby?? Had we caused some sort of mental or emotional damage that would be discovered years later? I wanted to find some answers. At this point it was already done so I accepted that even if there was a negative consequence of training I justified it by thinking that I would rather that than the intense sleep deprivation that was pushing me to the edge and potentially he could have ended up with a suicidal mother.

The more I read the more I came to realise that there is so much misinformation around sleep training.
The big studies (with good methodology) point to no difference in parental attachment between sleep trained and non sleep trained children. No difference in mental health outcomes,
IQ outcomes etc.
There are studies quoted by the “anti sleep training” crowd which do not have good methodologies and I think it’s really hard for the general public to distinguish “good” studies from “bad” studies and that’s where a lot of the misinformation comes from. Not all studies are equal.
I have a science degree and still found it confusing the amount of information and studies available. It’s only when I started reading more in depth and looking at the studies critically that I started to understand where a lot of the misinformation had stemmed from.

In summary, I did a complete 180 from my initial stance on sleep training once I delved into the research.

The “pro” sleep training crowd do acknowledge that there is an argument that cannot be disproven to say what if it does affect them later in life and we haven’t been able to quantify it with a study. I mean that is a possibility but it seems unlikely, all things considered and all studies that have already been conducted. It’s also something that is extremely hard to disprove.

There seems to be a whole generation of parents who have been told that teaching a child sleep independently is damaging somehow. These parents are convinced (as I once was) that the only way to be a loving parent is to keep cosleeping or assisting their babies / toddlers / children to sleep. Any kind of crying is neglectful.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with assisting your child to sleep if that’s what you want to do and are happy with how things are

What I’m saying is there are options if you are not happy with the amount of sleep you and your children are getting.

The anti sleep training crowd seem to be very vocal and accusatory, and of course no parent wants to think they could be damaging their child.
I see so many forums and so much content on social media that seems to be on one side or the other.
The thing is people who are into sleep training are mostly saying “hey, there’s this thing you can do where you leave your baby to settle themselves / another sleep training method and if you get their daytime schedule on track you can actually have a pretty good shot at some decent sleep. Don’t worry if not though”
Whereas the anti-crowd are generally (not always) name calling, telling parents they are abusive: neglectful etc. so many passive aggressive comments like “I could never!!!!!!”.
There’s lots of buzz phrases they use around sleep like “biologically normal” - yes it is biologically normal for young kids to wake up a lot but there are a lot of “biologically normal” things that modern life has overcome, and possessing the knowledge we do, we know that there are certain things that can be done to improve sleep. Sometimes even daytime schedule changes can have a significant effect on nighttime sleep.
What about children who naturally sleep through the night very easily early on, are they not “biologically normal”?

I have a friend who has convinced herself that she’s not sleep deprived but her sleep is “fragmented” which I think is another buzzword from the anti crowd. She sure sounds tired and sleep deprived, assisting their 12 month old to sleep throughout the night because they want her to feel “safe and secure”. I feel like the implication is that she thinks sleep trained babies don’t feel safe and secure going to bed.
My toddler seems very happy to put himself to sleep in his own bed and we have the most amazing and loving attachment.

The anti crowd also argue that things will get better eventually without training. And they will. Of course they will. Eventually most children will sleep through the night on their own.
And like I said earlier, if you enjoy assisting them with their sleep and are happy with that, then you go Glen Coco.
If you’re miserable with sleep deprivation then I hope you’re open to some sleep teaching, it can be life changing.
It does seem to be a bit of a lottery as to when your kid magically sleeps through on their own without any intervention and I do know parents with older toddlers/school age kids and have heard of parents with children up to 8, 9, 10 years old who still need lots of help either getting to sleep or during the night. (Again fine if you’re ok doing that, nothing wrong with it!). Some parents like to feel extra needed and treasure the nights they are up comforting their kids, that’s totally fine.
Personally I am happy not to do this on a regular basis. I do of course go and tend to my child if there is illness or anything causing them to wake unusually. However 99% of the time he is content to sleep soundly through the night and wakes up in the morning happily chilling in his bed for a little bit.

The argument about sleep training “not working”.. let’s talk about this one. There might be instances if your child has a medical condition or potentially some neurodivergent children will absolutely not respond to sleep training. However the vast majority of children DO respond to it. The problem is largely when parents are not consistent with the method they are using. They give up too quickly or send mixed signals - settling the child sometimes and then other times expecting the child to settle themselves. Perhaps they aren’t aware that daytime sleep is linked to nighttime sleep and the child is inadvertently getting too much or too little daytime sleep. Or they might be using a method not suited to their babies temperament- some kids find frequent check ins over stimulating and it doesn’t allow them the space needed to settle themselves. Perhaps the check ins are too long and again over stimulating. Most of the time check ins are meant to be very quick just to let baby know you are still there.
I also acknowledge that training methods differ by age and what works for younger babies doesn’t necessarily work for older babies/ toddlers.

Sleep training is also not just a “one and done” thing. Often there are times when children might need retraining such as after illness when they might have been up a lot in the night and of course you should comfort and do whatever you need to do with kids sleep when they are ill. Perhaps you’ve been on holiday and sharing a room, you might find that baby has become used to this arrangement and will need a period of adjustment to go back to their own room on return.

There’s so much information it can be difficult to get it right. That’s why there’s a multi million £ sleep industry with sleep consultants raking it in! I personally think the information should be free and available to all, in the uk I think it should be on the nhs. My health visitor offered me an appointment with a sleep clinic but only at 8 months!!! There’s no way I could have coped for that long on such little sleep.

So in summary, if you are a sleep deprived parent and wanting to change this and are on the fence about sleep training, I implore you to try it. The absolute key to it all is consistency so make sure you have a plan and stick to it, and if you have a partner make sure you are both 100% on the same page! If you have the budget for a sleep consultant then do it if you feel you need it, the support and hand holding can be invaluable. If you don’t have money to spend, get on some free resources, FB group “evidence based sleep training” - is a really helpful group with so much info.

If you’re sleep deprived and don’t want to change anything / dead set against sleep training then scroll on by.
If you think I am a neglectful parent for letting my baby cry for a few mins at a time to settle themselves to sleep and want to roast me for it then Fuuuuuuck you a million times over, you big bag of judgemental arseholes. I have absolutely zero regrets.

OP posts:
wellrestedmum · 11/10/2023 13:59

@PurplePetalPip I'm glad you found it useful! They do seem to go through little hiccups sometimes don't they. I'm sure all will be back to normal in a few weeks with consistency.

OP posts:
ValSand1 · 11/10/2023 14:01

I guess we got lucky with both of ours - and yes it can be very worrying and immensely tiring when you first start out, even more so if you have no 'experienced' voices to turn to!

What I did find useful, and not to everyone's taste I know, was this book 'Secrets of the Baby Whisperer: How to Calm, Connect, and Communicate with Your Baby' by Tracy Hogg - you can dip in and out of it for topic hints here and there and, above all, ignore the writing STYLE and concentrate on what is being said, the methodology.

Routine and structure was the key I found. best of luck!

wellrestedmum · 11/10/2023 14:58

HappierTimesAhead · 11/10/2023 13:58

I am so sorry for your loss. I cannot imagine what you have been through and I feel really sad that you were in such a vulnerable position and felt paralysed by the fearmongering (because it really does put the absolute FEAR in you that you are somehow damaging your child and that you are a bad mum). I cried endlessly about it all. Also, it is so hard to think logically when you are so sleep deprived! I can look back at it now with a very different perspective because I get 8 hours of sleep a night!

@HappierTimesAhead thank you, this comment made me tear up a little. I think I sometimes forget what a massive ordeal I have been through as I still live with the grief on a daily basis. Doing much better these days but it is something I feel I will never fully recover from.
Yep the brain fog is real on no sleep, I couldn't think straight!

OP posts:
SammieEBST · 11/10/2023 16:03

Thanks for recommending our Evidence Based Sleep Training facebook group - we're so pleased you found us helpful!

I'm so sorry for your loss, and that you had such a tough start with your second baby.

Sleep training saved my sanity with my oldest - like someone says above, I was almost-falling-down-the-stairs exhausted. I sleep trained my next two babies from birth and it was a total gamechanger for me. Like you say - nothing wrong with assisting to sleep if it works for the parents.... but for me the sleep deprivation was unbearable, and sleep training made me a better, happier, safer parent. ❤️

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wellrestedmum · 11/10/2023 18:04

@SammieEBST wow you lovely lot who run the group are phenomenal! I was sad to have only discovered it after we hired the sleep consultant. I constantly lurk reading all the posts on there as I find the topic so interesting, and I also like to give my parent friends tips and suggestions if they ask me.
Thank you for all that you do! I recommend the group whenever I can!

OP posts:
Sweetestp · 12/10/2023 22:02

Thanks for your insightful and well written post!

I often read how sleep training works within three nights and everything is great from then on. It’s a very attractive idea but i must say I am pretty anti-sleep training because all i can picture is my boy screaming for hours.. how long did the entire process take for the first couple nights? And did your child stop crying once you checked in on him/her?

He is 10 months now, i feed him to sleep for each nap and each bed time. The night wakes are not a big issue anymore, I just want him to settle for naps easier!
TIA!

wellrestedmum · 12/10/2023 22:34

@Sweetestp honestly a lot of it depends on the temperament of your child. At 10 months it's likely baby has some considerable stamina to cry for a quite a while- exactly how long will depend on your baby and what method you use.
We trained at 4/5 months and at that age, the process was reasonably quick, I think we had about a week of maximum 30-40 minutes of crying each night, with regular check ins, although in hindsight I do think sometimes the check ins were almost prolonging the settling process, so if I was going to do it again I would probably leave it longer between check ins and stick to traditional Ferber.

As I mentioned in the post the key thing about it all is consistency so perhaps have a think if you are really going to be committed to the process to see it through. People start then give up after a while and all they've done is teach baby to cry for x amount of time and they know they will get what they want to go to sleep (such as being fed / rocked to sleep), so it really resets the whole process.
It sounds like you're not particularly bothered by night wakes or anything and perhaps if you enjoy feeding to sleep you might decide it's not worth going through it all. Once you have committed to independent sleep you wouldn't be able to go back to feeding to sleep occasionally (as in you can't expect baby to settle themselves sometimes and sometimes be fed to sleep) as it is confusing for them.

OP posts:
Sweetestp · 13/10/2023 17:27

Thanks, helpful advice!

Beginningless · 13/10/2023 17:41

I was very anti- with my first child, for all the reasons you’ve mentioned, and she slept the whole night for the first time once at 18months, then not really reliably until she was 3. I was broken by that and by DD2 I knew I could not survive it again, her sleep was very similar, I was up 5-6 times per night and always within 1hr of going down, there was never any peace.

I still felt unable to do Ferber but did gradual withdrawal so I could be around while she cried. I used Lucy Wolfe method after a great MN post like this talking through someone’s own experience, and I always recommend that to let people consider there are various options. It’s too black and white to say ‘sleep training bad/baby led good’ - there are many variables.

And in doing it I really felt until then we had been inadvertently teaching our kids ‘you need me to put you to sleep’, and this was us teaching them ‘now we are learning a new way’. Like we do in their life now in many other respects.

3WildOnes · 13/10/2023 17:57

I'm glad that Ferber worked for you. I tried it with my first and it really traumatised my son. He became really withdrawn in the day and began crying hysterically at the beginning of our sleep routine in anticipation of what is to come. Possibly coincidentally but he is also my own child to struggle with low self esteem or anxiety. There are no longitudinal studies into the effects of sleep training. Currently the longest studies have looked at attachment at 6yrs old so there is no data to say either way if there are any effects as children grow up. I successfully sleep trained my others without every leaving them to cry alone.

Northby · 13/10/2023 19:44

3WildOnes · 13/10/2023 17:57

I'm glad that Ferber worked for you. I tried it with my first and it really traumatised my son. He became really withdrawn in the day and began crying hysterically at the beginning of our sleep routine in anticipation of what is to come. Possibly coincidentally but he is also my own child to struggle with low self esteem or anxiety. There are no longitudinal studies into the effects of sleep training. Currently the longest studies have looked at attachment at 6yrs old so there is no data to say either way if there are any effects as children grow up. I successfully sleep trained my others without every leaving them to cry alone.

How did you sleep train your younger kids please? I’m looking for sleep training but I don’t think Ferber will suit my DC.

3WildOnes · 13/10/2023 22:14

Northby · 13/10/2023 19:44

How did you sleep train your younger kids please? I’m looking for sleep training but I don’t think Ferber will suit my DC.

It was a gradual process. Not a quick fix. I added a sleep association, which was rubbing their back, so for the first few days I cuddled them to sleep but rubbed their backs until asleep. Then after a few days I started putting them down in their cots awake and I would rub their back to sleep, if they were grizzling I would just carry on but if they were getting very upset I would pick them up and cuddle. The next few nights I would just hold my hand on their backs. Then just sitting next to the cot and only touching if they were getting very upset. Then I would potter around the room folding clothes, only going to the cot if they were upset. Finally I would pop in and out of the room, not waiting for them to cry, just tidying up and only going to the cot if they were upset. Each stage lasted a few days. I always tried to comfort with the minimal amount of touch but would pick up and cuddle if they were very upset. After a couple of weeks they would go to sleep with me out of the room.
If they woke up in the night I would wait 5 minutes and watch the monitor if they were starting to settle after a few minutes I would leave them but if they were upset I would go in a settle them with as little contact as possible. If they were distressed I would always pick up and cuddle.

hotcandle · 13/10/2023 22:33

I was sleep trained 29 years ago.

My parents were at breaking point and brought in an outside expert to help them through sleep training over a week.

It didn't do me one button of harm. My parents are my best friends. I sleep as soon as my head hits the pillow and I seemed to be a lot healthier than my older sister (who, by comparison wasn't sleep trained and didn't get much sleep during her toddler years). That could very well be a coincidence, but we all know sleep is the bedrock of a child's development.

wellrestedmum · 14/10/2023 08:24

hotcandle · 13/10/2023 22:33

I was sleep trained 29 years ago.

My parents were at breaking point and brought in an outside expert to help them through sleep training over a week.

It didn't do me one button of harm. My parents are my best friends. I sleep as soon as my head hits the pillow and I seemed to be a lot healthier than my older sister (who, by comparison wasn't sleep trained and didn't get much sleep during her toddler years). That could very well be a coincidence, but we all know sleep is the bedrock of a child's development.

@hotcandle thank you for this!

I can only speak from experience but my little guy is so happy! We've just had the loveliest morning cuddles in bed after having a full nights sleep in our own beds.

I know my own mum really struggled with my sleep and fed me through the night as a baby. I remember getting up a lot around 4/5 years old and not sleeping well as an older child. Unfortunately my sleep has been hit and miss most of my adult life with some periods of insomnia and finding it hard to fall asleep, especially in new places to the point of making me feel a bit anxious about going on holiday as I know I'll have rubbish sleep.

There have been so many studies on the importance of a good nights sleep for both children and adults. I hope my sons self settling skills will help with sleep later in life as well, a bit like you when your head hits the pillow you can sleep easily!

OP posts:
Tor88 · 11/12/2023 13:19

@wellrestedmum thank you for this 💛💛 I hate all the miss used evidence from the anti sleep training brigade because ultimately no one can prove either whether it damages them or not. I basically feel I need to for my wellbeing but I feel so anxious about it, dreading it basically, but I think I'd regret not doing it and living a better life.... He's only 6
5 months, but I'm broken by the sleep...

wellrestedmum · 11/12/2023 14:45

@Tor88 good luck with it all, there is light on the other side I promise. I figured that what was probably going to be more damaging for my child was having a mother that was cranky and on verge of a breakdown from sleep deprivation or potentially a car crash from being so tired. And then there's the benefits of a full nights rest, which are very well documented!
It likely won't be as bad as you think, at 5/6 months they are about the right age to adapt pretty quickly, haven't got massive stamina for crying long periods. Just have a check they are getting around the right amount of day sleep and the last wake window is about right. The Facebook group is amazing if you need some free support / great info and resources

OP posts:
Rara12 · 11/12/2023 19:56

Excellent post!!

Waiting on LO to arrive this week so no first hand experience to share, but I have read Ferber's book and it is very sensible and child focused. He is absolutely against just leaving children to cry alone so I think what's on the internet must be misinterpreted? (I avoid Instagram etc for parenting so not sure but from some these posts it seems to be the interpretation).

What he does explain is sleep cycles in great detail and at different ages - excellent information to have, how many people know the difference between REM and non-REM sleep , and the different stages of non -REM sleep, plus how they are distributed through the night? It is so helpful to have that information!

And essentially that everyone wakes up through the night (adults and children) but if we wake up and things are massively different from when we fell asleep (eg imagine if as an adult we were moved and woke up in another room, well same for child who is now alone after having fallen asleep in parent's arms) we can't fall asleep easily. If things are the same, we just "check in" and fall into next sleep cycle as supposed to.

Massively helpful to think of it that way I thought. And when looked at it like that, a lot less stressful (cruel even?) for children for them to fall asleep in same conditions as they will be through the night.

Anyway just posted to thank the OP for sensible post and to recommend the book for anyone considering sleep training or having sleep problems as it is packed with good information from someone very qualified in that field - "Solve your child's sleep problems" by Ferber.

Nightowl2024 · 15/12/2024 21:25

I’ve just started to sleep train my 7 month old for last couple nights as she has not been sleeping through the night since she turned 4 months old and has become used to comfort feeds. We have been putting her down in her crib after a feed and rocking the crib, patting and singing to sleep. It does eventually work but one of the times she woke up at 3am and it took us 1.5 hours to get her back to sleep and then she was up again in 2 hours.

I am keen to try the ferber method but I read it says when to you enter the room to comfort them to then leave the room before baby falls asleep but is drowsy. How do people do this as my baby screams and is fully awake if we leave her bedside before she falls asleep..

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