Is 8 weeks too early for controlled crying?

[debster]

OK here goes.

My ds (now approaching 4) has always slept very well from an early age. We achieved this by using some controlled crying. The trouble is I can?t remember exactly when we introduced it as it was very easy to get him into a routine. I know that by the age of about 4 months he was sleeping from 6am-6pm with two 2-hour naps during the day. I now have an 8 week old dd and have been shocked at the difference in her sleeping pattern. The main difference (and the bit that is causing the most angst) is her refusal to sleep in her cot until about 10pm and only after she has been given her bottle. I am mixed feeding (breast all day except for one bottle last thing at night). Her ?routine? (if you can call it that) involves me waking her up between 7-7.30am for a feed. She is then so tired from not going to sleep until 10 the night before that she drops back off to sleep at about 9am. I then have to wake her up for another feed at around 10-10.30am. She then stays up for another couple of hours (although quite drowsily) and conks out about 1.30pm for about 2-3 hours, especially if she is out in the pram. I then pick my son up from nursery at about 4.30-5pm. If dd is awake then I put her under the baby gym while I get ds?s tea. This is where it gets really stressful. I then bath dd & ds and then get them into their bed clothes between 6-6.30pm. Whilst giving dd her last breast feed of the day I read a bedtime story to ds (talk about multi-tasking!) I then put both of them to bed at about 7pm. Ds usually drops off within about 5-10 mins but dd will sleep for about 20 mins and then start howling. She will continue to do this until we go in and get her up by which time she appears to be wide awake. However, if we hold her (partner has by now arrived home from work) she will drop off to sleep in our arms. If we then put her down, either in her cot or rocking chair, she will wake up within a few minutes and grizzle until one of us picks her up and we go through the same thing again. This will continue until about 10pm when we give her the bottle and she goes to sleep like a dream until I have to wake her up again the next morning.

Now I know I should be very grateful that she sleeps through the night and I am but we just don?t understand why she won?t go to sleep in her cot until after the bottle. Could it be that my milk just isn?t satisfying her enough at 6.30? Is it worth giving her a bottle at this time? Is 8 weeks too early to start controlled crying? Or should we accept that this is the way it?s going to be. I suppose it?s the thought of having one child who wakes up a 6 in the morning and the other who doesn?t go to bed until 10 at night that fills me with dread. 16 hours of constant childcare with no time to spend together as a couple in the evenings. Anyway, apologies for the long ramble but can anyone offer solutions/advice/sympathetic ear?

(Please no arguments about the rights/wrongs of controlled crying ? only whether it is too soon )

I believe it's too soon.
What's wrong with a 10pm bedtime?

When you disappear out of sight at this age, you may as well have fallen off edge of planet; they don't have idea that things still exist when out of sight. The whole idea of CC is that you "reassure" them that you're still about & nearby; 8 weeks is too young to understand that.

6-10pm is typically unsettled/colicky period for many periods. Textbooks say this ends around 3-5 months (no personal experience).

Babies are biologically programmed to stimulate your overall breastmilk supply in the evenings by lots of frequent feeding; they also get more fatty milk with lots of small feeds by feeding frequently, at this time.

Too early.

debster ...
Your DD sounds like she is almost in a Gina Ford pattern ... (please don't have a go anyone!)

Basically what I started with DS from 9 weeks was the GF routine:
Wake at 7/7.30am - feed
Sleep from 9 - 10 am (yes I woke him up at 10am)
Feed somewhere between 10 and 11.
He was knackered by Noon and I would put him down.
I would wake him if he was still asleep at 2.30 and give him another feed
He would have a snooze between 4 and 5 and then have a feed then.
Bath at 6 followed by another feed
Bed between 7 and 7.30 pm

(At 16 weeks we stopped waking him at 10.30pm and he went from 7 - 7)

I think that from what you describe, you DD can't manage to get to 7pm after her big daytime nap and probably needs to go down a bit earlier for the long nap and then have a shorter 'power' nap between 4 and 5.

I must add that my DS was bottlefed by this time but I am not suggesting for a minute that you introduce any more bottles unless you really really want to ... I really regret having to go to bottles so early and I think there are lots of breastfed GF babies out there.

Basically you might just need to break up her sleeps a bit more ... one short in the morning, one long midday and one short in the afternoon ... it might just work!

Debster I had exactly this, at exactly teh same time. dd just woul dnot lsleep between 7 and 10, but would then sleep perfectly through the night. This lasted for 3 weeks. We gave up trying to get her to sleep and allowed her to stay up - usually she lay under her gym, or in front of the TV - bad I know but she just would not settle in our arms or by herself. We would make sure she got a 20 minute sleep in the evening by going out for a walk. The second we got back she would wake up, but if we didn't do this then she would get v. grumpy before her late night bottle. At about 11 weeks she just stopped waking up at 7.30 (still woke up by herself at about 10)
I think it is too early for cc - give it a few weeks and see if she sorts herslef out. I think dd getting more sleep coincided with her doing more and so getting more tired.

I think CC isn't recommended until 6mths of age. As Zebra says, a tiny baby isn't able to understand what is wanted of her so I doubt it would work. I'm not really into routines but would starting your dd's day at 6am with your son be an option? Then you may be able to shift things forward a couple of hours so your dd goes down at 9pm, which would be a bit of progress.

All my babies were wakeful in the evenings and b-fed on and off between about 5-11pm but it stops eventually. It's part of the territory of motherhood, worst luck.

I think it depends what exactly you mean by 'controlled crying', and with what aim. Certainly it is too young for what is usually meant by cc, which is usually applied to older babies who are old enough not to need night feeds but are having problmes learning to go to sleep, and return to sleep in the middle of the night, by themselves.

I have to say your dd's evening sounds extremely typical of many small babies I have known. At 8 weeks ds had no routine of any description and was still waking 2-3 hourly throught the night, so I think your nights sound wonderful!! At about 6 weeks we started trying to get him to sleep in his own room in the early part of the evening with a bedtime routine. It took a couple of weeks of evenings spent going to him when he woke up, spending time settling him back to sleep, but eventually we cracked it. I think part of cracking it was finding that we needed to stop rushing in to him at his first little cry. Often we would just be about to go to him when hey presto he settled to sleep!! So I think that even at this age there is some scope, if you know your baby is tired, for leaving them a short while (I'm talking maybe 10 mins or so) to see if they will go to sleep by themselves.

It may also be that she isn't especially tired in the early evening at the moment - it does sound like she sleeps very well during the day. This will probably change as she becomes more alert and interested in things.

Thanks for the replies so far.

Another query though - if she isn't tired in the evening as some have suggested can anyone explain why dd will sleep when being held but 20 mins or so after she is put down she wakes up and starts crying. Is it possible to sleep being held if she is not tired?

Ghosty - The only time I can wake her up is first thing in the morning. All other times she is dead to the world and it is impossible so I don't think I can limit her naps during the day.

Yes it is - dd would sleep if out in her pram. I think she was just tired enough to fall asleep with the motion, but not tired enough to stay asleep by herself.

In answer to your question. Yes, it is definitely far too early. She is sleeping incredibly well for an 8week old, IMO and I know you don't feel it but I think you are very, very lucky. At that age, my ds was waking at all hours! And it is so normal not to go to sleep until 10pm that I think I would be more amazed if she did anything else. Babies of that age sleep when help because it is their instinct to be held and cuddled and feel reassured. Can you not just sit in front of the TV in the evening holding a sleeping baby? You can have a glass of wine in the other hand! It might be a lot less stressful than trying to change her pattern when she really is amazing sleeping 8 hours at a stretch at her age. If you also went to bed at 10-11pm you would get 7-8hours sleep at night before your dd wakes up - AND your last few hours of childcare would be no more onerous than watching celebrity big brother/house doctor/Foyles War or whatever, while having a glass of wine and chat with your husband. Plus you can have a rest while she has her afternoon nap and before you pick up your ds from nursery - and of course, this won't last forever. TBH, I would have given my arm for a baby who slept like yours at that age!

that was meant to read 'held' not 'help'. 6 months is considered the minimum age for cc, I'm sure.

I feel it is definatly to young. To me 8 weeks its like they just came home from the hospital. Their still so new.

Debster, all the books say to start sometime after 6 months, I did cc with my daughter when she was about 7 or 8 months and it did work then. TBH to have an 8 week old who sleeps from 10pm until 7.30am sounds like a dream!! BUT I do remember those hours when you long for a little peace at the end of the day and they are restless, ours seemed to stir every time dinner was being served!!
I remember that my daughter was about 12 weeks when she started to realise the difference between night and day (and remember reading that it takes around this long). Before this, we would put her to sleep on her sheepskin in the lounge with us, dim all the lights and have the TV on low and I could then see to her each time she woke through the evening without having to run upstairs, etc, each time.
One thing that people did mention to me was trying 'swaddling' as mine too seemed to really like being held (in fact I really think I hardly put her down for the first 6 months of her life!!) and I should have tried this in earnest as they obviously feel like they are being held. May be worth a try?
One other thing, I did know someone who did cc when breastfeeding her about 4-6 week old son. I found it quite shocking as the wee thing never cried when we spent any time together (I did a 2 hour class with her every week) and I almost felt like it had learnt that it wasn't worth crying as it didn't get any attention anyway. This may sound very harsh and perhaps now he's happy as larry (haven't seen them since baby was about 6 months old) but I really remember feeling concerned for the poor little thing.
Anyway, I hope yours starts to settle a little easier soon so you can have a precious few hours to yourselves of an evening. Good luck.

Debster - too early I think as well...
BUT what about singing to her in her bed when she does wake ?
What about putting one of you smelly clothes in her bed ?
I think she is probably sleeping a bit too much dyuring the day but it is very difficult to keep them awake when they want to sleep. IME it is the 7PM going to bed which is the hardest... DD the perfect child was fussy at 7PM and I use to have her in her bouncy chair next to us while we ate... and one day (around 6 to 8 weeks) we decided that it was for her benefit that she slept in a proper bed at 7pm... not half dosing in her chair... in 2 nights she had gotten the message. We didn't do CC (at least certainly not technically as I think the longest she cried might have been 2 minutes!).,.. but I kept going in and out and holding her and whispering to her, etc

Worth a try....

Good luck!

Too young for controlled crying. 7pm is too early for a baby of that age to go to bed for the whole night IMO. I would not introduce any more bottles if you want to continue breastfeeding. I would accept that this is the way she is going to be.

Debster - yes she is still too young to expect any kind of a routine, 3 months maybe, but 8 weeks no. It sounds as if she is sleeping quite a lot during the daytime and she's probably just not sleepy at 7pm. I mean you say "if dd is awake" you put her under the gym at 5pm. In other words you are expecting her to sleep the whole night only 2 hours after waking from quite a long afternoon nap. I'd say try cutting that afternoon nap down and then she may be more tired at 7pm. However she is still changing from week to week at this age.

My dd fed every 2/3 hours until she was about 5 months old. Sounds like your dd either wants the comfort of being held in someone's arms, or to breast feed. Maybe your milk is less in the evening, so she wakes up hungry again soon after 6.30pm feed? This sounds really familiar to me, sometimes dd used to feed for up to an hour in evenings, which I can only put down to less milk supply from me being so tired. Also, if you are leaving her to cry, she will remember this, feel insecure, and repeat it as a pattern and keep on doing it every evening. Sorry, doesn't solve the problem of time for you and your partner/when to eat/rest etc, except that it won't continue forever...........

ps, sounds like you're lucky to have dd sleeping through the night. My dd still doesn't sleep through(7 months) especially since she started teething. Now I just feed her(in our bed all night) whenever she wakes as I no longer have the energy to walk round the bedroom for hours!

pps Don't babies cry because they can't speak yet to tell you what's wrong? It's surely better to respond to this so that in future they feel they can always tell you if something's wrong.......

ppps, what is controlled crying anyway?

Our problem with ds was that he would sleep too long, and not feed in the night, so we started off by staying up till 1:00, (was preferable to setting an alarm clock for 3:00 as advised by the HVs, so we had to wake baby up!) and gradually moving it forward - he would be asleep or dozing downstairs, and we have now settled into a routine of him going to bed at 8 and getting up at 9:00. There is no way he could go to bed at 7 - he just isn't tired enough! And it's nice for dh to have some time with him.

I suppose what I'm saying, is, why not move her bedtime later, to a time she will sleep, and then inch it backwards, so she doesn't notice the difference too much.

Message withdrawn

I sympathise with you too, you & your DH need your time & space ALONE in the evening; I left my 3 week old to cry for an hour - I didn't feel all those pangs that you hear about other mothers feeling, I just chatted to a friend on the 'phone. (AM I curel?!!) It may be a coincidence but it worked, he has always gone to bed very happily at 6.30/7pm since that time - he is now 20 minutes.

I would definately try controlled crying - either my version or the correct one!!

He is now 20 months !!!!!!

20 minutes DOES seem very young for cc, Lindy

debster, why not make the most of dd being wakeful at night and spend the evening cuddled up on the sofa as aloha suggests? If you are worried about your milk supply being low could you express a bit in the morning and then dh could give her that at 10pm.

Your babies day sounds a lot like mine although dd2 is only 5 weeks. I confess that so far I have been glad that she is wakeful in the evening as otherwise I'd never get to spend any time with her (I have a 3 year old too) But I think its amazingly brilliant that she goes to sleep at 11-ish until 6am that I am prepared to allow her anything in the early evening!

It is too early to worry about creating bad habits, and IMO too early to do controlled crying (I was a 'Gina' mum with my first but am too soppy to do it with my second!).

Hoping I don't sound patronising, but if you try not to see it as a problem then it won't be, if you see what I mean.

I have to say, It never bothered me to be sitting with my baby in the evening when he was sleeping. I still felt 'alone' with my husband. It is when he started crying in the evening it was hell for a couple of weeks! I have very fond memories of popping round to a neighbours one summer evening last year, and sitting there in her garden, holding ds on my lap, having a glass of wine and chatting long into the evening. I couldn't have done that if he'd been in bed. Also, we used to take him out with us to restaurants when he was really tiny, and he'd sleep while we'd dine a deux, which was really rather romantic! I know you can't really do that when you have another child but it is the key benefit of having a first child and no routine until later.

It might be too early to start a baby on controlled crying but IME 8 weeks is not too early to find ways of tiring them out late afternoon before the wind down bed time rountine. I used to cuddle and dangle my son, lying on the floor with him. Or carry him while talking to him as I walked him around outside - holding him up close to interesting objects or sounds, not letting him lie still in his pushchair. Anything to stimulate him, give him a fresh environment to experience, or some dangling 'exercise'. It became part of our pre-bedtime routine and I think helped send him to sleep.