When could your baby link night time sleep cycles if you didn't sleep train?

[CasaMundi]

Mine is nearly 8 months and has woken hourly for help getting back to sleep since 4 month regression. I don't care if he sleeps through the night but even a 2 hour chunk would be nice! I was able to use gradual retreat with his sister with few tears but he has a different character. I'm wondering when did your baby start to link cycles independently if you didn't use sleep training to get them to self settle?

@crostini that's interesting and in keeping with the consensus so far of 12-14 months. My elder one didn't walk til 18 months though and baby seems similarly disinterested in gross motor milestones so I do hope you're wrong!

I usually keep him in his cot until around 4am and sleep in the spare bed in his room but give up part way through the night and Co sleep. It doesn't seem to make a difference to his sleep though and I find it really uncomfortable with him in the bed next to me- he takes up so much room!

Also following with interest - mine is also 8 months old and her sleep has well and truly gone out of the window since she turned 6 months! Naps are also 30 mins (that’s if she doesn’t resist them) doesn’t seem to like her cot, and she seems to wake an hour after putting her down 😞 trying to work with Ann Caird and hoping we will see a difference. Here’s to hoping our babies sleep will miraculously fix itself one day!

I did sleep train to a degree, because I got to the point where I basically had to go to bed with the baby at 7pm because I couldn't put her down in the cot and she literally hated cosleeping. She only contact napped and walked at 10 months so I never had any time to do anything. So we did lots of reassurance and coming in to comfort every 2 minutes until she went to sleep in the cot and then responded throughout the night as she needed every 90 minutes or so. At 13 months we finally got her room decorated and put her in it expecting it to be a trial and we would move the cot back after 1 night. To our surprise she slept the whole night through and continued to do so. I guess when she woke previously she saw us and wanted to interact but when we weren't there she figured there was nothing to be awake for and went back to sleep.

Next baby has been sleeping through 11pm-7pm the past 2 weeks but is only 3 months old so there is plenty of time for that to change!!

@JusticeBeaver who is Ann Caird and what does she suggest?

Just popped back on to say that after the most difficult week in the hot weather, when he wasn't even sleeping peacefully for the hour between wake ups, first two teeth emerged and we've had a week with several stretches of 1.5-2hours between wake ups. OK for most people that's absolutely terrible but for us it was an improvement. Back to the hourly wake ups and disturbed sleep last night.... perhaps we've got more teeth on the way. Combined with his sister being awake for 2 hours in the middle of the night we are pretty dead today. Anyone else got more stories of babies improving without sleep training to keep me going?

My first was (gently - you might not even call it that!) sleep trained before 6 months and started sleeping 7-8 hr stretches at 8 months. By this stage though we’d had a bad illness and she didn’t actually go to sleep without holding/feeding till 14 months…but the long stretches continued.

My second is 8m and just started longer stretches (4-6hrs) in the last couple of weeks. In her case the most regular wake ups were due to too much nap, the first was low sleep needs but she is VERY low! She’s never been sleep trained but often sleeps in buggy or car.

Hows the napping, is it possible he might need to be more tired?!

@Alexahelp that's an interesting idea. My husband queried that too. Quite by accident he's had less sleep than usual today so I shall report back tomorrow. I would absolutely love that to be the case so I could also devote less time and energy to getting him to sleep during the day!

Ours slept through from 10w! Took me by surprise and safe to say I didn’t sleep at all that night as was expecting them to wake up! Never really been a napper though. Had three naps until around 6m, then dropped to two at 8m, then one nap until 12m. Since 12m it’s been 50/50 whether they nap at all. Never at the weekend. They do sleep for a solid 12 hrs at night, sometimes more (2y now).

Definitely about the 12 month mark for my first. She dropped her last feed all by herself then and just started waking for a cuddle/reassurance I was there (I coslept till about 18 months) and would drift back off. Then at 18 months she went in her own bed and I would go in when she woke up about 2/3 and sleep with her (a small double floor bed) for the rest of the night. She’s now 2 but for the last maybe 2 months we’ve been getting more and more nights where she’s literally slept through and I’ve not had to go in at all.

Done no sleep training at all, didn’t night wean just let her drop feeds guided by her and coslept. I’m very lazy but it seems to have worked for us. I’m pregnant sooo I might be posting in a year eating my own words when baby 2 is the opposite.

@CasaMundi ahhh dreaded teething! My little one only has one tooth and as it was coming through it totally changed his personality for a few days. No idea where the others are - that was a few weeks ago.

A little update from me. I somewhat unintentionally got into into a routine to help him disassociate breastfeeding and sleeping in the hope that he will not need it to link sleep cycles in the night.
Here is what we have done so far in case remotely helpful for anyone -
Friday- I say it was unintentional because it started on Friday night when I went out with some friends and DH did the whole bedtime routine for the first time. To my surprise, I got an update at 8 to say that he was snoozing in his cot no tears at all which made me realise that he can do it and we needed to continue to break the habit when I am home too. He is a very 'busy' baby and the only way my husband was able to get him to settle for a bottle was by putting In the Night Garden on to make him sit still and focus after his bath (I know screen time not advisable but any port in a storm at the moment). He had a bottle in the lounge and when he started showing tired queues DH brought him through to his room which already had his white noise on and lights dim. He was asleep within two mins apparently and slept 8-1am which never happens!
Saturday- similar routine but I breast fed him in the lounge rather than bottle, DH brought him to bed, slept 7.30-12.30
Tonight- DH is out and I was worried he would not be put down by me without feeding. I was wrong! Fed him up in the lounge again and went through for a cuddle when he was tired. It took a bit longer (approx 10 mins of cuddles) and I was able to put him down drowsy but away and he chewed his hands to sleep without making a peep.
I know still lot to improve but can't believe we have got to this stage to be honest - it's been a quick turnaround of the first part of the night (still up regularly after the first wake at the moment sadly!)
I also wonder whether feeding in the lounge and being upright for longer after (ie not laying flat and feeding to the brim and then falling straight asleep) has been good for him and his sleep as he had very bad reflux as a smaller baby and is still very windy.

Sadly less sleep made no difference. I also haven't fed him to sleep for the start of the night in months. He has a bit of patting and mostly shhh. I do feed to sleep for wakes because my god there are at least 12 of them a night and there is no way I could manage anything else. He's got a stuffed up nose this morning which will explain why we had a few nights of slight improvement. Every time we think we're getting somewhere it turns out it was just that he was about to be poorly. I've tried really hard just to accept this stage in his development and trust that it won't be forever but I feel really depressed this morning.

Both of mine were roughly 12 months.

@MoaningMolly if you've rtft you'll see that appears to be the consensus that sleep matures around then (if you're lucky). Did yours go from hourly wake ups to much longer spells swiftly or was it a gradual thing?

Just to keep updating this in case other desperate parents read it in the future: our boy is now 9 months. His sleep cycle seems to have extended a bit so he's now waking every 1.5 - 2 hours until 5am when it is still quite effortful to get him to remain asleep for longer than 30 minutes. He's also become much more willing to sleep next to me but without being in physical contact at all times. We've done nothing different. Fingers crossed it continues to improve.

12 weeks

OP, I feel for you. The research you refer to was hungry babies in an orphanage. There is plenty of great data on sleep trained babies who do not have raised cortisol when they go to sleep. It was the only way we got good sleep with mine, which led me to be a better parent. And I must say. He seemed grumpy so much before he was sleep trained and after he was he was more chilled, his eyes looked better rested, and he developed and hit milestones faster too.

6 weeks old. Did nothing to encourage. It just happened. We didn't have a routine as such either. He'd drop off being cuddled on the sofa from 7ish. He'd stir as we went up to bed and show signs of hunger about 10.30/ 11. So we'd give him a bottle. Then that was it, fast asleep until about 5/6 am.

He's nearly 7 now and always been a solid sleeper. It really is luck of the draw. We never did anything structured, just followed his lead.

@bigpawsjames I think I'd find it an easier decision if mine was grumpy and tired. He's got bad separation anxiety, but so long as I'm either there or properly not there (not popping in and out) he is a cheerful, smiley little soul. When life does interfere with a nap I can definitely see the difference so I really don't think he's overtired. I do agree with you about thinking I would be a more energetic parent if I were getting decent sleep. We were away with friends this weekend and back to waking every 45-60 mins so there is definitely something environmental about it.

Hello! A few months on and I wanted to check if there has been any progress? I'm deep in the 30 minute wakes at 9 months. And quite often go to bed at 7 myself!

Evening @KatPu ah what can I say? My boy has a temp of over 40 the last two days so sleep has been..... pants (I was going to say something stronger!). He's 13 months now. About a month ago I finally got him self settling. It took me 7 months from feeding to sleep to self settling on his own in his room because I didn't want to let him cry. I was so excited when I finally got there because it had helped so much with my DD. Unfortunately it hasn't made any difference at all for him, even though i settle him with no boobs now for the first few wakes. He still co-sleeps from when I go to bed as without that he wakes every hour. When he's well things are definitely better than they were. From about 11 months we started getting a few occasions of 2.5 or 3 hours. The frequency of those longer stints has increased, so we would usually get at least one per night (when he's well) but he still is quite rubbish by other people's standards. Having those longer stints is magic though. Depending on how terrible the night is my husband takes him in the sling between 4.30 and 6.30 so I get a chunk of sleep then. I'm back at work now and generally managing - not feeling too tired. I have made the decision to stop trying to do anything about it and to accept that some of them are just awful sleepers. It turns out the frustration and loss of time and energy of trying to address it was actually way worse than just living with it (though I remember vividly how awful the period is when they wake without fail more than hourly).

Oh no, hope he gets better really soon. Ahh, I think I'm on the same page as you and just accepting that she's not great at staying asleep / falling back to sleep on her own. My oldest one was a terrible sleeper also (or still is, she appears next to my partner at around midnight every night at nearly 3 years old). At the moment a 2 or 3 hour stint sounds like a dream 😅. She's in nursery for the full day for the first time today and I'm going back to work on Monday. I would be so happy of she slept for at least 2 hours before first wake, so I could have just a tiny bit of time to myself. At the moment I go to bed basically when she does, leaving me with no time and an achy body from laying down so much.

@KatPu I'm with you on the achy body. I hate not being able to roll over when I want to. Can your DH do a shift? If you're going back to work he really needs to step up- you need a spell of 2-3 hours to function at work in my view. He used to take DS in the evening so i could sleep then but we have moved to morning so i dont call him on a good night when i get enough sleep without. Plus my body does a more reliable job of sleeping in the early morning than in the evening. I have mixed feelings about DS spending hours in the sling every morning but ultimately we have to do whatever we must to get through this phase.

Hi! I found this thread after recently posting about my 13 month old still struggling to link cycles and needing/wanting BF to sleep pretty much every hour (sometimes I get longer stretches but not consistently).
I just wanted to check in with the OP and those who have posted with similar struggles.
how is everyone doing? Any improvements at all?

You can help the mind recognize it's night by dimming all the lights down around the time you want him/her to be getting ready for sleep. Close the curtains, turn off TV, turn off screens etc. Make the house quiet and boring - have any other children do very quiet activities or also be getting ready for bed.

Once the baby is asleep you can always have the TV on quietly in another room. Have the same bedtime routine at the same time, including a short warm bath to help sleep. Try and have as structured morning and evening routines as you can (same times waking and eating and getting out into natural light) as these all trigger the brain to expect wakefulness, food, activity and sleep accordingly.

Have everyone talk quietly and calmly as you get into the nighttime routine. Have any boisterous activity stop before entering nighttime routine (i.e don't play with and have them run around in PJS - but warm drink, bath, PJs, book, bed) - remember calm and boring, don't stimulate the mind.

Make sure they are out in natural light asap daily and have plenty of activity during daylight hours.

If you keep all the lights blazing, lots of noise and activity into the evening, together with an eclectic, unpredictable schedule and no daily routine, the brain has no patterns it can learn.

In the summer I would still close all curtains, creating dim light/darkness and quiet and it would help them fall asleep, despite bright sunlight outside.

If necessary have a white noise machine or gentle music to block other sound.