When could your baby link night time sleep cycles if you didn't sleep train?

[CasaMundi]

Mine is nearly 8 months and has woken hourly for help getting back to sleep since 4 month regression. I don't care if he sleeps through the night but even a 2 hour chunk would be nice! I was able to use gradual retreat with his sister with few tears but he has a different character. I'm wondering when did your baby start to link cycles independently if you didn't use sleep training to get them to self settle?

Sadly that wouldn't have worked for my CMPA/reflux baby @Goldencup. Until 4 months every time I put him down he vomited. Particularly frustrating when trying that arms up swaddle that's meant to be a miracle. Arms up just meant me vomited all over his arms rather than the sheet!

That sounds tough.

Hi @CasaMundi

I'm on my second non-sleeping child and it is hard work. My firstborn definitely improved around the year mark but it was rough until then. This time around we had a really rough 4 month regression..DS is 5 months now and last night did a 5 hour stretch at the start of the night (when I wasn't asleep) and then woke hourly or so after that point (even co-sleeping doesn't extend these stretches and he isn't actually bothered about milk in the night he just wants a cuddle and to be ON me 😩). I suspect he has a bit of reflux and maybe a food sensitivity but nothing I've tried seems to have made a difference so I'm just riding it out.

I've never been keen to sleep train is a traditional sense and even an approach where I sit next to a crying baby providing reassurance doesn't appeal to me so I'm bracing myself for a sleepless few years but trusting my instincts again and ignoring the noise around what they 'should' be doing.

Good luck and hope you get some more sleep soon.

@WillIEverSleepAgain123 I admire your certainty about what to do for the best! I hope your second is a little easier than number one.

I'm really surprised by how consistent the year mark seems to be in respect of improvement with no sleep training. Wouldn't it be refreshing if that was posited instead of "unless you let them cry it won't improve til they're 3 or 4"

Well if he's done 3 hours next to you without needing anything then he's linking sleep cycles! If a baby has ever slept longer than like 1-1.5 hours then he's linking sleep cycles as baby sleep cycles are around 45-90 minutes.

Yes @GinnyBee it was quite miraculous. Of course not repeated last night - back to hourly sadly. Still. If it can happen once it can happen again.

Sleep Training culture is full of misinformation.

Firstly, you can't train sleep, sleep is a biological function that we do in the womb.

Secondly, self settling isn't possible for a young infant because the brain pathways required for this aren't even developed yet.

So, those who have sleep trained haven't magically taught their child to "self settle" or link cycled, they have merely used a behaviour modification technique (all of which require the caregiver to limit their responses to the child - even those sneakily marketed as "gentle") and therefore teach the child that, that need, will not be met by their caregiver so they essentially give up trying to conserve energy. They still wake, research has shown this, and they are still distressed, it's just they have been trained not to call out for that need, and in some circumstances they don't bother calling out at all, there's been plenty of sleep trained babies who have been sick in the night but didn't call out for help, then parents are going into the room in the morning and there's vomit in the cot.

Infant sleep can be such a minefield especially as sleep training culture is shoved down our throats, which isn't evidence based and is potentially detrimental to our children's emotional development.

BASIS is a great evidence based resource thar has great information on normal baby sleep and the potential costs of sleep training.

They are all individuals and baby sleep isn't linear.

We all sleep in cycles, for an average adult they’re around 90 to 120 minutes long. During that cycle our sleep gets deeper, our body temperature and respiration levels decrease and our brain activity increases. REM Sleep is known as paradoxical sleep because of the busy brain and still body. It’s the phase of sleep important for processing memories and cognitive processing. Towards the end of a cycle our sleep is much lighter and we are much more easily woken.

One of 3 things can happen at the end of a cycle: 1. We go straight into a new one without becoming fully conscious in-between (this is when people believe they have ‘slept through’), 2. We wake, but nothing is wrong so we quickly start a new cycle (often we forget these wakings and believe we have ‘slept through’) or 3. We wake fully as something is wrong/inhibiting us from starting a new one (temperature, lighting, comfort, thirst, pain, fear, anxiety etc).

Adults usually have 4-6 sleep cycles per night. Babies, whose sleep cycles are around half as long as ours, have on average 12-16 cycles per night. Can you see why they wake so much more than us? Because their sleep cycles are shorter and they can’t fix the problems that happen in between them! (this is why the idea of teaching babies to “self settle” or “self soothe” is so completely ridiculous and why most forms of sleep training are superficial at best and down right cruel at worst).

So, “sleeping through the night” is a ridiculously naive term (and goal). Instead we need to change our goal to “connecting cycles independently”. How do we achieve that? Time and patience! It’s a purely developmental process, cycles lengthen naturally with age. We can also make sure everything is optimal in the sleep environment and in the child’s diet & sleep timings, plus provide emotional reassurance. Optimising as much as possible sleep wise gives us the best chance of removing those tricky problems between sleep cycles (because remember, they can’t fix them alone!).

Information above from Sarah Ockwell-Smith

Yes thank you @mamacat6060 . I've read it enough that I recognised the author before reaching your third post 😁. Honestly I do think she overstates the point as most sleep trained babies will still call out or cry when something is wrong or they need parental intervention. What they dont wake for is a specific input like 3 sucks of a nipple or a bum tap. I guess the question is to what extent are those reassurance of parental presence cries important for infant wellbeing? Surely if it were just about reassurance of parental presence my boy wouldn't wake when he is cosleeping with me as he would get into lighter sleep, realise I am still right by him and move into the next phase of sleep. I don't believe he really has a developmental need to have his bum tapped! That having been said I do feel uncomfortable with the idea of elevated cortisol and I can't tolerate his crying so that alone stops me from sleep training him.... at the moment. I think we will wait until 12 months and if there is still no improvement we will need to embrace cry based methods to some degree as we are both feeling quite unwell with sleep deprivation now.

I think you're looking too deep into it, baby sleep is so individual, sleep training isn't going to solve anything, it just masks things if anything, it's essentially teaching your child you're not going to meet that particular need. And they are needs, comfort is a valid need too.

You don't have to sleep train! There's ways to maximise your own sleep without having to put your baby through those distressing sleep training methods.

There's a great group on Facebook called The Beyond Sleep Training Project, fantastic advice that is evidence based and gentle.

And it is a developmental need to be supported to sleep, if you think about it, in the womb they were rocked, warm and supported... why would that change all of a sudden when they are out of the womb?

Mine went through phases of being rocked, fed to sleep, bounced... all of which we just went with because it was what they needed at the time, then all of a sudden they were happy with us just laying next to them.. because they were developmentally ready.

Were there tough times? Sure! We're we sleep deprived? Sometimes! But from my studies in child development and psychology, and my instincts, sleep training is something that I know isn't actually beneficial to the child.

Just thought I'd update that in the last week I've had 3/4 nights with only 3 wake ups which is just unheard of for me. Last night wasn't great (she does have 4 teeth coming through at the moment) but I'm hopeful after a few better nights that she will get there on her own eventually 😀

Aah @Roollie that's fantastic! You must feel like a new woman. Right on time for 12-14 month sleep maturation. Turns out the better night we had was because he was getting poorly so we've been in the wars a bit since then.... but every night is one we don't have to do again

My eldest did long chunks of sleep at 2yr3months. Still woke once a night for a wee until nearly 3.5. On the bright side she has never ever wet the bed.

My boys started doing a longer stretch at the beginning of the night at 10 months, but still mostly woke every 2 hours from 2amish until they were 2,when they stopped waking regularly (illness etc aside). In some ways trickier than my daughter as they are not dry at night as they don't wake when they need a wee.... haven't cracked that one yet! Nearly 3 now.

I never bothered to sleep train. Thought about it a few times, but it just never seemed the moment - teething/illness/some kind of transition going on. Then it just became unecessary. DC4 due in just over 2 months, suspect I won't bother again.

Have always fed to sleep/coslept as convenient. My boys also took a dummy (eldest had no interest). I'm sure you could do things differently from me if you want a less broken night earlier, I generally don't find the wake-ups too bad when I'm feeding back to sleep as it makes me sleepy and as long as it's a brief waking it never disturbed me too much - most wakes were briefafter 10 months or so except for the first one after a long block (when they'd have a big feed), and honestly in the morning I coudlnt have told you how many there had been.

If you don't want to sleep train you don't have to. Illness aside mine are great sleepers now. Equally, if you need to do it, I'm certain there are ways of doing it gently that could suit you and you'll find lots of advice on this board. Waking at night is totally normal for babies/toddlers and isn't bad for them, but can be very tough on you!

Ah I'm sorry to hear that, I hope he is feeling a bit better now 🙏

@TinyTeacher I admire how relaxed you are about it. I honestly feel enraged by the wake ups and have to consciously remind myself not to be angry with him. It makes me wonder if sleep training would be a better route for us and leave us all more relaxed. I am filled with indecision. The idea of years of sleep this broken is awful. Breastfeeding has not been easy with him. Although his TT was cut early he also has a high palate and reflux and doesn't latch brilliantly lying down so the wake ups disturb me more than they might otherwise. I think I'd manage fine if he becomes like your boys and does a long first stint then two hourly in a month or two.

I'm with you OP. I'm 9 and a half months in and yet to have a good night's sleep. I'm exhausted and actually been poorly from it all (I have an overactive thyroid which has developed post pregnancy and I'm pretty sure surviving on broken sleep isn't helping). I keep hoping she will just do it on her own but we aren't there yet. I've posted previously on this thread but feeling a bit down about it all today so seeing your further post has prompted me to get in touch again.

The decision of whether or not to sleep train is so bloomin hard.

Oh @Purple89 I'm sorry you're feeling down today. I was chatting to my neighbour who is of an older generation who just said 'well there's nothing you can do about it ". I guess the sleep training industry didn't exist when her kids were babies. I honestly think it would be easier to cope with if there wasn't this insidious possibility of making it better quickly.

Thank you @CasaMundi and sorry you're also in the thick of it.

It is interesting though as I've had so many women of an older generation recommend I leave her to cry for 3 nights. So I think some did it but didn't know it was sleep training or obsess about the pros and cons. Like you say, there's a whole industry in it now!

Have you ever tried the oft recommended approach of leaving it just a few mins before you go in? I have never left it more than 2 or 3 mins but she just seems to escalate and get more awake so don't think it will work for mine... x

@Purple89 yes - but like yours whenever left for a few minutes it just means getting him back to sleep takes 45 minutes not 10!

Following! My little one feeds every 1-2 hours during the night and starting to loose my mind 😴 he's 10 months and we have never sleep trained. He normally feeds to sleep which I know is a huge part of the issue. If he doesn't he stands in his cot and gets very upset despite me being there trying to settle him.
Interestingly, he used to feed to sleep for naps as well but I happened to be very unwell for a day when he was five months and his dad had to deliver him to me for a feed and then take him right back again to settle down. He is now the best daytime napper and when it's time, will go to sleep almost instantly on his own, it's just the night which is the issue, I wonder if that day showed him he can do it alone in the day without feeding 🤔

In my experience, babies start sleeping better when they start walking full time. But that might just be coincidence

@Babyenroute are you keeping him in his cot all night and going in hourly? If so you're a hero - there is no way I could do this without cosleeping!