4/5 year old won’t sleep FOMO

[adeleb362]

Our 4 (nearly 5 year old) old daughter will go through the bedtime routine and then "flip her power switch" to full on.

She gets silly, disruptful, disrespectful and then just out of control with her choices. . We have a quiet bedtime routine...but as soon as the lights go out it's as if she can't handle calming her mind and body long enough to fall asleep. She’ll jump on the bed, scream, shout, hit, kick, spit.

We've used charts, calming sounds, meditation, diffusers but nothing works.

im at my wits end :(

Do you do something very energetic & silly before you start the bedtime routine? That can sometimes lean into doing calm cuddles. Mine go a bit (extremely actually) feral as it heads towards bedtime & often into bedtime as well. This is worse if they are overtired & sometimes if they haven’t had enough attention from us. No idea what it’s about it’s infuriating, and half the time someone gets hurt because of the roughhousing,
The spitting I would introduce hard sanctions for, that is Not Okay, but that pushes my buttons.
what happens if you just close the door & leave her to it? Will she listen to an audio book?

What time is bedtime? She sounds over tired.

She goes to bed around 7ish. We try stories and calming things but as soon as the lights go out she just flips.

We obviously tell her no and warn her about the spitting/hitting etc, but she just laughs at us and just ignores us. She carries on playing, messing etc

Can you put her to bed to read or listen to an audio book for 20 mins then go back for lights off?

We do that, she's all calm when we read, she's happy doing it. There's no issues at all with the wind down, it's just the sleep part, as soon as we get to that, her brain switches

I meant you leave and then go back, so a bit of space in between? Or have you tried that?

I haven't tried leaving an audio book and then going back, purely because the wind down doesn't seem to be the issue. It's the actual sleep part.

I'll try it though as I'm willing to try anything.

My DD is a bit similar (no spitting though - yet - thankfully!). If we say night night & leave her in her room & close the door, she just comes out and runs around. We have to sit outside her room for ages & take her back in every time she comes out. It's so wearing!

Yes, we have tried that. It can take 2 hours to put her down each night and it's so tiring because we don't have time to relax or catch up on anything as we are both so tired from having to deal with her.

It's awful because it makes me start to resent her, I don't want to look at her, I don't want to talk to her, I just don't want to be anywhere near her because she gets me so frustrated. And that obviously makes it worse because I'm then short tempered with her.

We have tried pretending we are going to bed too, turning all the lights off downstairs etc, and even getting into bed, but she just doesn't care. She'll just come into our room and jump around.

What's the consequence of her misbehaviour op?

We've taken things off her (toys, iPad etc) stopped her going to her friends house, stopped her going to friends parties. Nothing seems to work with her though.

There is a level of just gotta get through this, but it is very wearing, I quite often lose my shit tbh.
I imagine a parenting book would suggest something like, just before you turn then Lights out having an “oh no! The lights are going out! Are those sillIes coming out? Oh dear, where are they, better get rid of them before the light goes out! “ or before bed dance along to the sillies song, so they’re all gone & can’t come out . . Raffi sillies song.

i will admit, I’d like to be that kind of parent, but my temper is too short!
I have had some success in explaining at not bedtime that mummy is a much better mummy when she gets a proper sleep. And emphasising when I’ve been tired & grumpy or can’t do something because I’m too tired.

I think your consequences need to be closer to the actual event, those are all pretty abstract.

other things you could try - leave her & totally ignore her,but I’ve never been happy about that.
ask nursery to do some social stories about going to sleep & why it’s important.

Do you stay with her when the lights go out? My kids can be like this but they just need a bit of help staying still and calming their mind - I stay and give them a cuddle. I don't stay until fully asleep just until they are calm and on their way.

Is she having nightmares or scared of the dark?

What does she say is happening for her emotionally?

as soon as the lights go out it's as if she can't handle calming her mind and body long enough to fall asleep

Stop putting the light out? Maybe she's not ready to fall asleep. Let her fall asleep reading.

She doesn't say anything is 'happening' she just starts talking constantly as soon as the lights go out and it's 'sleep time', she gets up and out of bed, jumps on her bed, sings, shouts.

When I tell her to get back into bed as it's bedtime, that's when the hitting and kicking starts.

I read all these things online about just putting them back in bed, but it's not that easy when she's hitting, biting and spitting at me.

She's as good as gold in the day time, she will do everything I ask, she's polite, kind. Doesn't ever hit or kick etc.

It's just bed time. I feel like such a failure :-(

I have tried leaving her and holding the door whilst she kicks the absolute shit out of it. But after 10mins she gets bored and just dances and plays in her room - even with no toys she'll make her own game up in her head!

I have told her if she's good then mummy won't shout and get angry and it will be a nicer bedtime and a better day tomorrow as mummy won't be tired, but she just doesn't seem to care. It's like she's in a trance and just isn't bothered by what I say at all.

What else could I use as a punishment, you mention closer to the event, but short of me saying I'm going (which she doesn't care about) I'm not sure what else I can do or take off her

Hmmm we have 3 under 3 who all go to bed when told to. She's only kicking off cause your giving attention and not being firm enough

OK so what happens if you say good night, kiss, light off close the door and walk away? So totally don't buy into it. Every time she comes uut, you pick her up and put her in her room and close the door. No talking. If she stays in her room, leave her, don't stop her playing etc unless she's going to hurt herself?

Or if you turn the light off and get into bed with her?

Does she have a night light?

Ours went through a phase of coming down, we'd take him up, leave the light off and offer a sleepover so basically cuddles in bed. Now he's 8 and if he's pushing it he'll come down but he does go up, on count of 5 at worst. We let him read if he can't sleep (he gets intrusive thoughts sometimes he confuses with nightmares so reading is the best answer)

Tbf putting over 3s to bed is harder than under 3s.

I’d just leave her to it. So what if she’s dancing and playing in her room? My DD would be the same if we tried lights off and go to sleep right now. Instead we trust her to self regulate so she goes up to bed at 7 and must stay in her room but I can’t make her sleep so she can read, play, whatever she wants so long as she’s in her room. DH and I eat dinner at 7.30, then one of goes up to check on her around 8 and she is always in bed fast asleep so we just turn the light off then. We’ve been doing this since she was 4. Everyone is calm and happy. She gets enough sleep. I know it wouldn’t work for every child but it works really well for us.

@LadyJ2023
Hmmm we have 3 under 3 who all go to bed when told to. She's only kicking off cause your giving attention and not being firm enough

Well good for you and thank you for being so helpful. This lady is at her wits end and is asking for constructive help and you post this?

My four year old grandson is always giddy at bedtimes no matter where he is sleeping (at home or at mine). Reading stories/having a nice relaxing bath with bombs in make no difference. We use different strategies - last night he stayed at mine and I had bought a fan for his room which he helped me to take out of the box and assemble and switch on. This seemed to work a little, but just when I thought he was going to settle down he decided to show me his bum :)
Talking about his day is helpful as he has to think and this sort of arrests the jumping about ..LOL
I always leave the door ajar for him as I have a phobia of being closed in rooms and this seems to help too.

I think when children are like this it never helps to get cross as they are obviously anxious about something they cannot convey to you in words.

I left a lamp on, and an audio book running. Did not say goodnight, just said righty oh, I have a lot of ironing so I'll be doing it on the landing outside so I can still hear this story. I've been so busy today I need to catch up on things or we will have no clothes!
Left the door open and did the ironing.
I was there but not there. We were both listening to the book. There was no finality to it, just a slow drift. Might be worth a go.

Is she at nursery?
Has she started school?
What is her daytime routine like - waking in the morning etc?
Does she eat well before bed?
Is she better if Dad puts her to bed?

It does sound as though she may be attention seeking. I agree with the silent return time after time. Consistancy is key. The 'punishment' or consequence of her poor behaviour is not getting any attention.

My DD is 3, so a bit younger but has always had a hard time winding down to sleep and can get very giddy and battle sleep. Just repeatedly taking her back to bed doesn't work. She is generally polite and obedient in the day, but it's like her brain gets overwrought and she can't think any more and just bounces off the walls when over tired. What we have to do, is give her a big cuddle in bed, hold her quite firmly and sing or talk about something very repetitive (like counting sheep), after a few minutes you can see her eyes go heavy and we can put her in bed and generally she will then go to sleep. We do have to be firm about no games, no getting toys etc. I think it's the being held that seems to tip her brain into a sleepier state. I know she is a bit younger and I don't what it'll be like as she gets older! We have tried leaving stories on etc but that hasn't worked. You are not a failure, she just has a hard time sleeping.

I agree with this last paragraph.. sounds like there is something she is anxious about.. possibly the dark, closed room, being left alone or maybe feeling like she wants to spend more time with you (i guess what some ppl call attention seeking)..
i would push her bed time a bit later and play a bit before bed time or go for a walk.. something that expends more energy and not focusing so much on a calm wind down.. maybe she isnt tired yet.

in terms of her behaviour and your feelings towards her - definitely good to seek some outside help here, psychology or play therapy?. Youre not a failure, we all have emotions to deal with and doing that while tired is incredibly hard.