Please explain PUPD sleep training to me like I'm an idiot?

[TheRookieMum]

My 4.5mo DS falls asleep at my boob. Or in the pram ok, or in the car after protest. Him falling asleep at my boob is fine, natural, cute, etc, except that for the last month it's been almost every 40 minutes overnight, with a few 1.5 or 2 hour stretches thrown in at random so I'm looking at sleep training so he can fall asleep without me.

He has 4 naps a day, 3 are 30-40 minutes and one is usually up to 1.5 hours. I pay attention to his wake windows and we have a good bedtime routine. We have a shorter, admittedly maybe weak nap routine.

I'm interested in PUPD as it may work for his age so I read, but I have heard this can take 3-4 hours on night 1. How on earth does that not just end up with an overtired baby who then crashes but is awake again 40 minutes later???

Also, if it takes hours, how do you do it overnight, how do you do naps, and how do you deal with the still-needed overnight feeds???

TIA for any helpful advice from a very tired, confused FTM.

How do you feel about bedsharing, for some or all of the night?

Also if you're on Instagram, look up Lindsey Hookway

Terrified of it if I'm honest. Just think I'll suffocate him, roll on him, knock him off the bed... just not for me. Wish it was, does sound easier sometimes but then the fear gets me.

fair enough! there's a big regression / progression / lots of development going on around that age so it will pass although I know that's not much consolation at the moment. I found dropping as much as possible during the day helped, and trying to sleep or at least rest during naptimes. although less possible if you've got other commitments. I dont know anything about PUPD unfortunately sorry.

The 4 month regression sucks but it’s a physical development in the baby’s sleep structure and they will figure it out on their own. You can’t teach it any more than you can teach him to grow his teeth. I don’t think any sleep training is recommended until that regression is over because it would be time and effort wasted.

I used it for DS some 14 years ago. Ĥe would constantly wake at the end of each sleep cycle, (c40/45 mins) as his dummy wasn't there, so did it to kind of wean him off the dummy use. From my hazy memories, I started with a nap(one of his long naps, think it was an afternoon one). So got him to eventually nap without the dummy that nap...and repeated at bedtime.

Each time took a while.

As above, very vague memories, but put him in cot, if he cried I picked him up, "Shush-patted" him, put him down when stopped fussing but left my hand on his tummy gently patting for a minute, still making a shushing sound. Then stopped the patting, but left hand there. Very quietly shushing. Then stopped the shushing. When he cried again (even if immediately) I picked him up, and repeated....back down when stopped/patting/shushing. Sometimes he would cry immediately, sometimes I would be able to lift my hand and stop the shushing before he cried...mostly it was a mixture and a bit of a blur. But I just stuck with not giving him the dummy.

I picked up/shushed/patted/put down A LOT that first day, a little the second day and that was it. DS was then a cracking sleeper/napper...we used to laugh that I could pop upstairs dump him in his cot and by the time I got back to the top of the stairs he would be fast asleep.

No heartbreaking tears. He knew I was there and just learnt to sleep without needing the dummy.

I did try it for a little while with my eldest who's now 13 so quite some time ago. She was quite a bit older than 4 months, maybe around 9 months, and I was a single parent and on my knees. If I'm honest, looking back I find the whole concept a bit mad and wish I hadn't done it - not that there was any harm done. Just the whole soothing and then putting back down again just seems to prolong it unnecessarily. It didn't work either but may have if I'd stuck with it. I did try all sorts of different things, but wasn't willing to let her cry. In the end it just happened in time. Both of mine were late to sleep through. With my youngest we had a next to me and then a cot attached to the bed and that was a lot easier in many ways.

There's a huge amount of development at his age, so he needs his sleep and getting 40 minutes at a time isn't good for him either! He's in a better mood when he has had better naps & overnight sleep, but it's random, rare and max 3 sleep cycles, usually no more than 2 at a time. Last night was every 40 minutes and honestly I just want to curl up and cry. He's not much better this morning, poor boy.

Will he really just grow out of it? After a month of no improvement, it seems hard to believe. But then, I'm so tired nothing much makes sense any more. We have several in-jokes at home about my sheer stupidity brought on by baby brain + no sleep. It's funny, but also not.

I've read PUPD can work for babies between 3 and 8 months & it sounds like the least amount of crying. But I just can't work out how it works / how to do it without losing even more sleep for us all.

Where is my baby's manual? I seem to have lost it...

There's really no evidence to support that babies waking frequently is harmful to them. Babies are designed to wake frequently and for the first year it's entirely normal to wake up to every 2 hours. If they're waking hourly or less, outside of developmental regressions that usually resolve within a couple of weeks, there may be another issue that needs addressing (reflux, teething, colds and ear infections...). The 4 month regression is usually the longest (6 weeks or so) as it's an actual change in baby's sleeping patterns, whilst other "regressions" are more linked to development. So if the less than hourly wakes continue much longer then you may need to check for other problems. Otherwise, yes he will just grow out of it!

I would buy a few books. The baby whisperer I think has a good guide to PUPD. I used a loose version of PUPD with mine from about 8 weeks with lots of success.

Thanks @GinnyBee. My boy is more of a grump on days he's had bad sleep, so I just worry it adds up and affects his development. Especially after a month of it. It's so cool to see him trying to do new things and I know there's more happening in his head too. But hopefully you're right and it's not actually an issue. I know it's normal, it's just so, soooo draining and if there's anything I can do to help him and then me, in that order, I would do it. Just no idea what.

@33WildOnes when would I have time for books?! It's all go at the moment! I've managed to type this while feeding him to sleep for a nap, now I'm off to do necessary things for me like eat, brush my teeth etc. By the time I've done that, he'll be up again!

My partner is fantastic, but even then, neither of us has any time spare!

I did it with dc2 for the same reasons, surviving on 40 min chunks of sleep was quite frankly dangerous for me (still having to drive dc1 to nursery etc) and not much fun for them either.

We broke it into chunks, so started at beginning of bed/nap times and then any wakes after that we did as normal until we had bedtime sussed, and then started to apply it to night wakes but I found once he got the hang of it the night wakes naturally decreased hugely on their own.

During the 'put down' bit we initially would pat/shush until completely asleep, then until nearly asleep, and then reduced every time until I could put him down awake and leave the room and have him put himself to sleep, and would obviously pick up/go straight back to him if getting upset.

I know lots will be along to say it's natural and biologically normal and he would work it out eventually and I'm sure he would have but there's a reasonable chance I'd have wrapped my car around a tree before that point and co sleeping wasn't much better so we needed to do something!

It definitely is a phase that passes. Not easy to hear when you're in the thick of it though. 4-6 months (sleep cycles change) and then 9-11 months (separation anxiety) was really the hardest times for me with my DD and her sleep.
We fed to sleep, co-slept most nights, basically I did anything that worked, the path of least resistance. She started sleeping through the night at 12 months. She's coming up to 19 months now and occasionally she'll come for a cuddle but most nights it's straight through.
She's teething and hasn't woken at all in the night this week.
PUPD would never have worked for us, it would make my DD even more stressed. She craved comfort so that's what I gave her. BF helped and she fed constantly some times but it was what she needed. She's an amazing sleeper now and I'm glad I supported her for every wake up, even though it was really tough.

The first year of sleep for them is the toughest as they are going through so many developmental changes

@LG93 I hear you! I'm doing my very best, but I know I am a better mum/partner/person with even just a little more sleep! Currently know idea how people cope with more than 1 DC.

Thank you. So PUPD for bedtime first works...? Naps as normal to start with? And just feed to sleep for night wakes till they decrease to genuine hunger wakes? After a few days/week or so, yours improved and didn't initially become overtired and make things worse?

How long did you try PUPD for a given nap, or did that come after introducing it at bedtime first so it was quicker? There has to be a balance as a nap is only 40 minutes so my DS would quickly miss a nap, surely, the first few times, which again leads to an overtired baby?

Sorry, that's so garbled.

It's really hard you have my sympathy.

Yes we started at first just with bedtime and still fed/rocked to sleep for all other wakes, it made it feel more manageable. definitely didn't make him any more tired in the short term, and once he had the idea at bedtime introducing it at naptime didn't seem such a leap as he knew what was happening. I used to cap it at half an hour trying for naps and if he didn't go down I'd get him back up and try later, a philosophy I still apply now he's 1!

One of the books/insta posts I read talked about sleep consolidation so it does sometimes feel like it gets worse before it gets better (eg night sleep might improve to the detriment of naps) but it's temporary and does settle out again but something to be aware of.

Sleep obviously isn't linear and we're in another phase of rubbish sleep now, but I know he CAN do it so we ride out the teeth/regression/leap/cold that is causing it and at least I know he will go back to it which makes the hard nights a bit easier, it all's feels much less helpless than it did back when we were where you are now!!

In answer to your 2 DC question, dc1 was an excellent sleeper (a nightmare all day though!) And basically taught herself to fall asleep on her own at about 3 months, refused to fall asleep on me anymore and that was that so I was lured into a false sense of security 😂(although dc2 is much more relaxed in general and 'easier' in the day so swings and roundabouts!!)

So since I posted, he's been teething on and off so my attempts have been weak and sporadic. However, a couple nights ago he strung 2 sleep cycles together 3 times. The last 2, he's strung 3 sleep cycles together but otherwise woke up every 40 minutes. (And thinks 6am is tome to get up all of a sudden). I'm getting even less sleep. And so is he, his cot naps have gone to shit so we walk, twice daily.

But is this progress without sleep training...??? Please, please say it is...

Hi would love to know how your little ones naps are now?

Hi OP,

I did it with my dd almost 13 years ago! She was very similar in sleep to your baby. It worked well but took a week or so of getting there. So here's the thing. She was a very spirited baby and picking up just disturbed her more. And it didn't ease her crying. So I ended up doing more of a sit next to her. And then I worked out that that was massively annoying for her and so I ended up settling her in her cot and leaving her for 5 mins. The dark and quiet calmed her down whereas me being present just prolonged things.

It worked well after I figured that out. So I'd suggest going for it with the strategy of pupd or shhh pat and then seeing what worked. THEN stick with it. It really did work for dd. She was always hyper alert so I think adapting what you do to suit them is the way forward.

@Ftm030201, I hope I don't jinx things but 8mo DS naps and sleeps overnight extremely well now. He reliably goes down for a 60 to 90 minute nap within a few quiet minute, twice a day.

But... we didn't use PUPD as that wound him up like crazy. Instead we used a method very like what @mewkins described. We followed the Lucy Wolfe stay and support method as soon as DS hit 6 months which worked for us from night 1. Not kidding. Basically her book explains a method in enough detail that both me and DP could follow the exact same steps at bedtime, overnight and naps so it was consistent for DS and it worked so well. I'd recommend a read or listen on Audible.

We do a 10 minute wind down for naps & bedtime, then put him in his cot and he's usually quietly asleep within 5 minutes. And stays asleep for 2 good naps, or up to 5 hours overnight before I'm called for a quick feed, after which he again usually sleeps very quickly and for hours till 6 or 7am.

Oh interesting thank you! Did you jsut carry on as you were till 6months? I want to wait till 6 months before trying anything but getting very touched out by the fact that she will only nap with my boob in her mouth and also means I can't go out or do anything cos I can't put her to sleep any other way! She's only 4 months though so I know she's very little and also sleep regression

Oh I feel for you. 4 to 6 months was not a good time for us.

I did just carry on, I don't really know how because for us, it got a lot worse. I'm sorry to say that, I gather not all and maybe not many get as bad as my DS but his naps went down to 10 minutes. I think he was extremely sleep deprived. I ended up doing 2 pram walks a day, whatever the weather because it was the only way he'd get any length of sleep.

We tried PUPD but it was a disaster. DP and I then couldn't agree when or what method. But I got him on board via the book and the day DS hit 6 months, we moved him to his own room and sleep trained. It was something like 50 minutes of hard crying the first bedtime, and 10 each wake up. Then 40 minutes the 2nd night, then 30 and so on with fewer and fewer wakes. I think we could have sleep trained slightly earlier, but most guidance says wait till 6 months so that's what we chose to do. Also we didn't want to start weaning at the same time so we started weaning at 5.5 months so there was a 2 week gap.

I just put him down for a nap and it took him 3 minutes to fall asleep. His development shot forward, as did his mood and eating. It's been a lovely 2 months.

It's about finding a timing and method that's right for your family. If you think 4.5 months is right for you and yours, give something a try.