Almost at breaking point w 18 mo waking for day at 4am

[Lovage]

Until Christmas I was still bfing DS 18mo when he woke in the night. Usually it was just once at sometime between 1am and 4pm and then he'd go back to sleep til 6 or 6.30. We'd all be awake for about half an hour. But even on this regime, which in retrospect sounds fine, we, and particularly DP, were constantly tired and ill (DS was perfectly happy).

So we decided over the Christmas hols that I would stop bfing him in the night in the hope that would make him sleep through (still bfing when he asks in day - about twice a day, as before). Instead, DP goes to him and rocks him and tries to get him back to sleep. At 6am we declare it to be morning and I bf him. But we've now been doing this for 6 weeks and his sleep is pretty chaotic (quite often wakes at 1 or 2) but the commonest pattern is that he cries briefly but settles himself earlier in the night (but it still wakes us up) and then at 4 he cries properly and basically won't go back to sleep. Mostly he cries hard and asks for a bf for about 15 mins, then he lies quietly in DP's arms but eyes wide open and seemingly wide awake. He cries whenever DP tries to put him down.

We are not prepared to leave him to cry for more than a few minutes. I also don't think it would work, and I guess you have to believe it will work to be able to do cc.

We have tried cutting down his nap (was 2+ hours, now 1 hour) and are thinking of gradually pushing his bedtime later - currently 7pm and he settles himself fine - to 8pm, although we don't really want to do this because we like having the evening to ourselves. Not sure whether to do this gradually or suddenly - any advice on that?

But something has got to change. Our weekends and evenings are just one of us sleeping while the other looks after him and our relationship is suffering. We are also going to try offering him milk and a biscuit in the night, in case it is hunger that is waking him (have just been doing water (and painkillers, especially Medised!) so far). This morning DP did get him back to sleep at 5 but then he woke again at 5.20 which made me wonder if he was hungry (he'd already had Paracetamol, so pretty sure it wasn't pain).

I suppose the nuclear option is to go back to feeding him in the night, but that wasn't working for us either (although it wasn't as bad as this). And we want another child (are we mad?!) and have fertility problems, so nighttime bfing is a bad idea for that.

Oh and co-sleeping doesn't work either - he either gets upset because he's not in your arms or he thinks it's a great game to sit on your head.

DS seems fine on this little sleep, although a bit more crotchety and frustrated than he used to be, but that could be developmental.

Sorry to be so long but I wanted to get it all out! Any advice (except 'leave him to cry') and similar experiences very welcome

Oh how I feel for you! Thankfully those days are long past for me, but I do remember that feeling of exhaustion, frustration and desperation!

I hesitate to give you any advice because things have changed since I had my children. The only think that struck me is that if you think he's waking because he's hungry, surely you would be better to feed him before he goes to bed? If you feed him when he wakes up, you risk 'training' him to wake up - yummy! milk and a biscuit at 4am!

I had a brilliant book (sorry, can't remember who it was by) called 'Solve your Child's Sleep Problems'. It talked about sleep, the different phases and how children learn to sleep. One of the strategies in the book was controlled crying, which I see you don't want to do, but nevertheless it was extremely helpful to understand more about how children sleep. (Of course, it may now be a discredited title, but it was a lifesaver for us!)

And I know you don't want to hear it, but controlled crying was an absolute lifesaver for us all. And was a lot, lot stressful and painful than we thought it would be. Just my views though ...

good luck and hope someone with more contemporary knowledge can help you.

Whoops - a lot less stressful! Sorry!

Thanks!

He already has his tea quite late - 6pm ish. I guess we could try waking him up to feed him something when we go to bed, but that's at 9pm at the moment, so I'm not sure it would gain us much. And it seems counter-intuitive to wake him up to feed him (not what you were suggesting, I know, just thinking aloud).

I've heard of that book and will have a look, but I think we are pretty well informed about sleep - have read No Cry Sleep Solution and the Sears one to pieces and lots of others too, including those that advocate cc. We're doing everything right, according to the books, except leaving him to cry for more than a few minutes. I dither and sometimes think we should try cc and othertimes think we shouldn't but DP is absolutely anti cc and he's the one who's actually doing the night care at the moment. And it feels like the sort of thing one parent ought to be able to veto if you do disagree completely (which we don't, I'm just dithering between two positions)

Absolutely agree - you've got to both want to do cc. All I can say is that we started it on Thursday and by Sunday ds1 was sleeping through the night, and the longest he was left to cry was 5 minutes. (Although 5 minutes does feel like a very long time!)

I really wouldn't wake him up for any reason. But why don't you try giving him an earlier tea, and then give him something else just before he goes to bed?

It might be worth trying to put him to bed a bit later, as you suggested.

Can't you do PU/PD which is a much gentler sleep training method.

Dd was terrible at 14 months old (and had been like that for 6 months)The whole house was exhausted. We did PU/PD and she is much better

Don't try cc if you're not 100% sure your lo isn't in pain. I tried it for one night with ds before discovering a new tooth the following morning and the guilt was awful. Good luck!

Lovage, my DD is 17 months, still wakes in the night and generally up for the day from 5am so I know where you're coming from. She hasn't had night feeds for months but does have milk pretty soon after waking and has her dinner about 4.30 - 5pm with a snack before bed and an 80z bottle of cows milk. 5 oclock is definately the earliest I would consider getting up though. 4am is very much the middle of the night DH and I also bicker because of the lack of sleep but neither of us woud leave her to cry, she would probably go on for hours if I did anyway.

What has worked for us though is co-sleeping. At 12 months I put DD in her own bed (double matress on the floor in her own room) and we took it in turns to sleep with her. Now I get into my own bed and join her when / if she wakes. She's a child that likes the comfort and I can understand that. I know you're not keen but have you tried to sleep cuddling him close, curling yourself around him? My DD loves falling asleep with her bum wedged in my stomach (and I love sniffing her head )

I haven't noticed any link between less day sleep equalling more nightime sleep. Her best night so far was after a 3 hour day time sleep! I also find that if she's too tired when she goes to bed we have a nightmare night.

Is he teething? My DD always has long wakings at night when she's teething.

I'd also suggest you and DH try and share the night shift a bit if you can so you can share the sleep deprivation. Might make things easier.

I certainly feel for you, esp with regard to waking at odd times & being wide awake etc. My little girl was 2 in November and we're still having sleep problems. She relaxes into sleep by breastfeeding and I haven't yet weaned her. I would try to get her off night feeds, if it wasn't for the fact of her crying waking up her 10mo brother, who sleeps far better than she does! (No, not meaning controlled crying - as I don't do that - but just the fussing/crying for not giving her what she wants.) I do hope to wean her sometime soon, but I don't think she's quite ready for it yet. I had nearly weaned her off any daytime feeds back when she was about 20 months old (because she was getting bored & wanting to bf all day long it seemed), but then she was ill with flu & then chickenpox and wouldn't eat or drink anything (except breastmilk!) so the weaning was all long and she was even more dependent!

The latest thing we've done is cut out all naps (didn't really want to, but otherwise she was up till midnight at least and then sleepy in the morning). So now she has no naps during the day and goes to sleep at about 7:30pm (of course, I bf her to sleep, tho usually it's not that long of a feed). She has about 1-2 short feeds during the day - perhaps 1 before lunch and 1 before dinner. And then she wakes anywhere from 1-3 times during the night, tho sometimes 2 of those times might be from 4am onwards. the past few nights she's woke up at about 5am and been wide awake, or asking for breakfast, etc. But afraid I can't think of getting up quite so early!

I do hope things get better for you! Any bright ideas, pass them my way too! lol

ps, hope the above post makes sense (haven't re-read it) - typed in a hurry so I can jump in shower b4 either of my little ones wakes up looking for me!

thanks all!

PU/PD doesn't work at all because he just howls as soon as you put him down - he never gets used to it. DP does keep trying to put him down and sometimes leaves him to cry for a minute or less. Occasionally it works, mostly it doesn't.

It's not that I'm not keen on co-sleeping - sounds like a great plan from here! It's that DS doesn't find it sleep inducing. Either he's upset because he thinks you're putting him down or he's excited and thinks it's a game.

Has had patches of teething and illness in the 6 week period we've been doing this, but I really don't think that's the problem most of the time.

Last night DP gave him milk when he woke (4.30 which was at least a bonus half hour) and that calmed him down really quickly - hardly any crying. But then he still didn't go back to sleep. DP managed to put him down and come back to bed after an hour, which doesn't usually happen, but DS cried briefly every 10 mins or so until 6.30 when I fed him. He then fell asleep, but only for 10 mins. So I really don't know what's going on. Whether he was hungry or just upset and the milk cheered him up. Maybe he just doesn't need more than 9 hours sleep at night? Seems unlikely. And we need him to need more sleep than that!

But isn't that the point of PU/PD? Dd howled as soon as we put her down... first session took about 2 1/2 hours. You just go back in, put them down walk out, repeat ad infinitum until they stop...and they do eventually.

We had to do this, as co-sleeping doesn't work for us either, dd thinks it's party time when she comes in with us

I think if you're not happy to put up with any crying, then you will also just have to accept 4.00/4.30 wakings!

I agree that some crying will have to be involved if you want to change things. I would second PUPD and he will cry as you've taught him that if he does, you'll give up.

If you decide to do this, you have to carry on til they lie down and go back to sleep. When i did PUPD i never left the room til they were asleep so they
don't feel abandoned. At 18m, i think you shouldn't even be picking up, just lying them down every time they stand up. They will get annoyed and cry/scream, but soon realise that they might as well go back to sleep and after a few times, will decide its not worth all the effort. It will work but you have to be strong and believe you are doing this to help your DS as well as yourselves.

18 months is old enough to understand what you say, even if he can't talk. Have you tried telling him "Night time is for sleeping. Mommy sleeps, daddy sleeps, DS sleeps as well. Nobody eats. Nobody screams. Everybody sleeps." or something else to that effect? Say this every time he wakes in the night, and there is nothing wrong with your tone of voice making it obvious that you are not happy being woken up.

I guess everybody here knows that an 18 month old does not NEED to feed in the night, and that this is just a habit. You need to break this habit, and the only way of doing it is stopping night feeds and treating the 4 AM waking as any other waking in the night - telling him it is still sleep time, little eye contact, don't turn lights on, etc.

I agree that there will have to be some crying, as there will be in the future whenever you say "No" to your toddler. It will be a harder/longer process with every week that passes, so if you are not happy with the current arrangement, I do recommend that you change it without delay.

Agree wholeheartedly with CoteDAzur.

Sleep is like any other tantrum-inducing issue with toddlers. They might want to be awake half the night, much like they might want to play with kitchen knives, but you won't let them chop their fingers off, however much they cry and protest. Try treating sleep in the same way. Habitual night waking might not be life threatening, but it is sanity and relationship threatening, and if it has become a problem, you need to do something about it.

Sounds like the tail wagging the dog. If you want him to sleep you have to accept that training him to sleep will involve some crying.

It's about changing behaviour which is never easy, but does work

Will second putting thme down rather than picking them up. According to BW this agitates them more.

Go in, lay him down, no eye contact, say night night time, pat gently leave. Return immediately if still crying...keep going ad-infintum..