How do you settle a bright baby??

[OxyMoron]

I've scanned through the sleep threads (albeit quickly), and can't find the answer to this one. dd is 6.5 months, very bright, by which I mean interested in everything, very alert, easily overstimulated, etc. I have huge propblems getting her to wind down at night to go to sleep. She was always a rubbish sleeper, but I worked really hard on it and eventually she understood that the cot was the place for sleeping (naps and bedtime). Then after about 3 months of things being not too bad, she suddenly decides she doesn't like the cot and screams every time we put her in it. Again, been working really hard on bedtime routine, which is:
bath
massage (in dim light)
into sleepsuit
feed
into cot
story (turn off light at end)
lullaby cd
asleep (sometimes!!)

It's better than it was, but it's just that more often than not at some point in the routine she'll throw a wobbler and basically scream herself to sleep whilst I try to shush her and stroke her and resist taking her out of the cot.
It's as if she knows it's bedtime and that she'll be missing out on the fun IYSWIM.
Naps have been pretty patchy since this cot strike started. She'll only nod off during the day if she's feeding, being cuddled or out in the stroller. Best I can get out of her is 3 45 min naps, and that's unusual. It's usually more like 2.
Sorry I've gone on, but you know what it's like. The last thing you want at the end of a tiring day is a fight at bedtime. I find it really stressful because I hate hearing her scream and also because I know, frustration aside, that there's nothing wrong with her. You know when you have to start teling yourself 'she's not doing it to wind me up...'

Any ideas? please??

TIA

sounds like you are doing all the right things Oxy.
Although ive got no advice what i would say is stick it out. Persistant consistancy is the key!
My Ds hasnt slept the whole night through ever and he is 17 months now. Therefore i am in no position to preach.
all i can say is many many sympathies because it is very distressing when they are upset and you know damn fine that a pick up and little cuddle will do the trick.
Good luck, im sure there will be some great suggestions and advice to follow.

How long does she cry for? I honestly think some babies do need to cry for a short while before they go to sleep. Ds definitely went through a phase of it - and it was a phase. It's like a final discharge of energy, plus a short 'OH, I'm SOOOO tired' kind of protest. What time do you put her down to nap?

you sound like you are doing everything right - just when you think you've cracked it and think you have the routine down they change it though don't they. I would persevere and hopefully she will see she is getting nowhere and just drop off. Maybe leave the room and let her settle on her own instead of stroking her etc. Good luck!

Hello there! Don't worry you're not on your own! It's taken over a year to get to a point where we can put our little girl down awake and she'll go to sleep on her own. It doesn't work 100% of the time either, although it is getting better. She is also very "bright" and hates to miss the party so to speak, and has been like that from day 1.

We found that we had to be cruel to be kind (to ourselves aswell as madam). We would have a similar routine as yourself then give her a little rock before putting her down. Then the tantrum started. We would just walk away, close the door and leave her for a couple of minutes. If she was still crying we would go in and talk gently to her, but NOT touch her. Just reassure her that we were there, then walk out of the room again, leaving her for slightly longer this time. This may happen two or three times in one session and eventually she would go to sleep.

This usually happens for a couple of nights, then one night she'll go down no fuss whatsoever!!!

It's hard, and you think they are going to hate you forever, but in the morning they're all smiles again, I promise. It really has been the only method that seems to have worked. The golden rule is not to touch them or pick them up, just offer reassurance with your voice so they know you're there.

Hope this helps a little!!!

Good luck

Hi again,

thank you all for your responses. It's just nice to know you're out there!
Donbean - I think you're right about persistent consistency. I just hate the whole battle of wills thing. She has a very strong will and I know mine has to be stronger when most nights I just want to cry too.
Aloha - I can't put her down to nap anymore. She seems to sleep at around 10.30 2pm ish and if we're lucky again at around 4-5pm. Bedtime is between 6 and 7, varying with how tired she is that day. The length of time she cries at night also varies. Sometimes (rarely) she doesn't cry at all, sometimes there's just a little as we put her down, sometimes there's fukk on screaming for up to half an hour (sometimes longer). I think often she's overtired and I've been trying to judge when bedtime should be to avoid this, but never seem to manage it.
KBear - when she's calm i leave her to nod off on her own, or if it's just the winding down noise that i know is not a problem. but i can tell the cry that'll just wind up and up if i don't help. Well, tbh it winds up if i do help too, but i can't bear to listen and do nothing.
flossismum - i think you're right. i hear 'that' cry and i know the more i intervene the worse it'll get. i try to just make shushing noises but eventually i persuade myself that surely contact will help settle her, and it doesn't. Sometimes i think i do it just so i can pass the time while she cries and it doesn't feel like i'm not helping her IYSWIM. I just find it so hard to listen to. At least i seem to now be able to resist the urge to pick her up, except in the most dire cases.
any other posters - sorry i missed you, but thanks for your support.

I'm just glad i can talk to people in the same boat! I think it's karma or something. i did the same to my parents, and they tell me it's worth it in the end.

erm ... full on screaming.

Me again...

I've just realised. I think the reason I feel so bad about it is that she's such a happy baby all day and then I know that by putting her to bed I'm going to cause all this upset. It's just a guilt thing.

How long does she sleep for at night OxyMoron? Just trying to work out if she might be over-tired given her short daytime sleeps.

My dd was a very bright little button who always needed to settle herself before sleep with usually a grumbly cry rather than a scream. I wonder if, as yours is actually screaming, she's rampantly over-stimulated and tired? Your bedtime routine is lovely but perhaps a bit much for her age group? A story for instance could be replaced with some gentle rocking or cuddling to lull her rather than keep her mind going? Stories are wonderfully soporific for us now dd is over 2 but up to about 18 months they'd just have stimulated her in the wrong way. When she was younger, like yours, I just always got her away from ALL stimulation when tired, even my touch to be honest.

Crossed posts OM. Hey don't feel guilty! And trust me, battles of wills and feelings of guilt get worse and worse the older they get so don't start just yet!

Hi OM! I am feeling your pain! So sorry to hear all the crazy days going on right now

I too, have been posting due to ds and his brief naps during the day - barely can get 45min out of him! He also sounds like your little one - very observant and wants to take in everything. He used to sleep 1.5-2hr each nap - now I have to keep piling the naps on since we are anywhere from 25min-45 each nap. Then, like you, we have to race to bedtime since it just gets messy! I was told to try and put ds down EARLY for a while since sleep = sleep. Even, if you feel like it is too early. I am no expert, but it is beginning to show signs of improvement for us. He has been on a schedule for a long time, but ever since this, we have been off. How it was explained to me, was that I need to try and get as much sleep as I can into him since he is chronically overtired and then finding that schedule will come next. Ds was going to bed around 7/7:30pm at night and now we up it even to5:30/6 some nights if the days are horrid. It has worked with him still waking up around 6/7am as well - I coudn't believe it! Hopefully, we will have more of a routine soon, but since he is SO off, we had to break it somewhere. Hope this little tidbit helps like it has for us. I still am trying to gather any other tips others have for me in extending ds naps back to normal. Good luck!

hello prefernot, sleep guru! Hello everyone else!

Oxymoron, I agree with prefernot on both points. When my dd was that age, after feed she got a little cuddle and maybe i sang to her (poor thing} for a minute or two and then she went into her cot, lights off. Most nights she fell asleep on her own. It might be worth cutting out the story and see if things improve!

Good luck!

Hi

should have gone to bed hours ago so apologies if this makes no sense!

story - this is a recent addition. my theory was that she was freaking out because she gets left alone to sleep, so by staying to read to her (in a quiet soothing voice as i try not to excite her) she'd be reassured that she wasn't being deserted. then when sh'es calm i can leave. it works sometimes.

err ... what was the other thingg? ahh - chronic overtiredness. i've been suspectingthis and wondering about drastically early bedtimes. i guess i've resisted it because dh would hardly get to see her if i put her to bed much earlier. also it's mentally draining for me to have to do the whole day with her from getting up all through to putting her to bed. i like the thought he'll come home and take over for a while.

did that make any sense?

i had one of those (a very bright baby that is, and he still is 10 years later, very bright that is, not - still a baby ) when he was very little we had a huge aquarium and he thought it was great he would watch the fish for hours and especially last thing at night when he needed to wind down. Not sure what i would have done without it, certainly made sure it was well stocked when i had the next two.

DS (8 months) was like this - used to windmill his arms and thud his feet on the cot mattress at anything remotely 'soothing'. Then we bought an ugly bear lullaby light from Mothercare (it's not called ugly bear, but it does have an ugly bear on the front!).

It has a light show that projects onto the ceiling, plays a soothing tune and has nature sounds too - DS has this every nap he's at home for (admittedly not that many - we like going out!) and every night. He did initially windmill his arms and thud his feet when he saw it, but he now associates it with sleepy time.

Your bedtime routine sounds great - the only thing I'd suggest is giving your DD a bit of relaxation time between her feed and going in her cot. If I put DS in his cot immediately after his last feed he often protests. But if I leave him five or ten minutes on the bed next to me, he's fine and goes to sleep no problems when I put him in his cot (now that's called tempting fate!). It's like he needs a few minutes to wind down.

Sometimes he's just tired though and can't wait to get in his cot with the ugly bear light on!

Just keep the routine going, keep bedtime as calm as possible (which it sounds like you are) and sooner or later she'll get the idea. If you chop and change her routine too much, she'll wonder what's going on!

Now I'm going to bed - should've gone ages ago! Doh!

Ooh - just remembered - if you do get a lullaby light, buy some rechargeable batteries too. The only time I have had problems putting DS to bed is when the batteries run flat - I now have two sets of rechargeables with one set permanently on charge!

OM -

I fully understand what you were saying about wanting that break at night from dh! I too was SO hesitant to put my son down earlier because of your very reason. It is just such a LONG day
There have been a few nights when my husband hasn't been home in time to see him, but it has been worth it in the long run! As he catches up on sleep, he is able to get back (slowly) to a more "normal" bedtime and some Daddy time at night as well. Good luck!
Oh! and would LOVE know where to buy that "Ugly Bear" light show too! Is Mothercare a store or the brand name?

I haven't read all of the messages, so apologies if somebody else has mentioned this, but maybe this has something to do with her late (4-5pm nap). My ds was just like this, so I tried to get him into a daytime routine which was a 40 minute nap two hours after he had woken and then a longer nap over lunchtime. He usually woke after 40 mins at lunchtime, but I would settle down again and he would always go on to sleep a further hour or so (it sometimes took up to half an hour to re-settle him). That meant that I could cut out any naps after 3.30ish, which meant that by bedtime he was tired, but not overtired.

umm, maybe the routine is too interesting - too many different bits, so she can't quite tell whether it's really finished by the time you leave her - think it's telling you mention that you think she has an idea of "missing out on fun"? I always had a very minimal bedtime routine & it seemed to work - bath, pyjamas, one story, quite firm goodnight - also used to use "see you in the morning", even from very little.

(just reviewed posts & see I'm echoing prefernot)

Hi all.

Once again, thanks for the suggestions. About the routine - we used to have a fairly short, simple one. Bath, dressed, cuddle, cot. But then everything stopped working. I just thought that maybe she needed more winding down time so I lengthened it. I think the problem is that what works for one baby doesn't necessarily work for anothar, so how do you find the thing that works for you without chopping and changing the routine every week?

dh putting her to bed at the moment (I couldn't cope with another night!). So far we're 25 mins into the big scream.

hi oxymoron, have skimmed your thread and really feel for you. you've hit the nail in the head with the consistency thing. we went through exactly the same with DS (now 3) and I spent so mucb time thinking about what I could do to make him sleep better that we seemed to alter our routine almost weekly. Looking back I can see we should have stuck to one thing, even if it took quite a while for DS to settle to it. Hindsight is a wonderful thing!

I agree with the others that for a 6.5 month old, your bedtime routine sounds a bit lengthy. My DD is exactly 7 months and her bedtime is bath-milk-bed. She usually protests a bit when I put her in her cot but goes to sleep within 5 mins. The key for me is knowing she is tired, so I know that little bit of crying is just a protest. BTW, her daytime sleeps are half an hour in the morning ( 2 hours after she gets up), and 2 hours at lunch. No afternoon nap. I do actually wake her up from her naps, as if I don't, she'd sleep an hour or more in the morning, and then only half an hour in the afternoon, and with that pattern she really is cranky by teatime. I have a toddler to feed/bathe/put to bed too, so I've settled on the pattern for baby that fits with everything else and we stick to it!

Lulupop -

what time does your DD go to bed at nigt? My DS is the same age and I have been posting needing help in lengthening his naps.He only takes cataps (and a few months ago was sleeping solid 1.5/2hr naps) and we are horrid by bedtime due to him being ovetird. I am wondering if I should try something like you have with DD? he needs that 2hr nap in the afternoon SO badly!

I'm so fed up of this. she's just screaming and screaming. i can't cope with many more nights like this. why is there nothing i can do to help her? i hate this.

Hi there OM, how's things now?

Re. bedtime routine you're right all kids are different. It's like some kids love to be rocked and cuddled but my dd has always been very sensitive to touch / contact etc. so that had the opposite effect on her. Dp came up with a brilliant thing when she was about your dd's age. After her bath, in pyjamas, just before her final b/f we sat her in her little bouncy chair watching a slowly moving elephant mobile make shadow patterns on the wall cast by candle light. It was so brilliantly simple and utterly soporific for a little livewire like she is. Then she'd have a feed and be totally sleep drunk by bedtime and be out like a light.

I remember completely how frustrating it was though hearing her screaming and fussing and resisting sleep.

hi oxymoron
so sorry to hear screaming is getting you down - it's so horrible isn't it
sometimes when I know it's going to be a bit of a scream I go out to put the washing out or something that takes about 5 minutes to do but gets me completely out of earshot - at least that way I get to relax for a few minutes
as a longer term solution you could try weaning your dd onto some kind of comfort object like a blanket or cuddly toy - we did this with ds2 and it works well - I give it to him as I put him in the cot or when he is asleep and it calms him down a lot - at first he just ignored it - I put it in his hands while he was screaming and I was holding him or I just left it next to him in the cot - but now he seems to really like to go to sleep stroking it.
my ds is also very active, alert and easily overstimulated but he responded extremely well to routine at just about your dd s age. I do bath, moisture cream and sleepsuit, milk, bed with cuddly, then I go outside for a good 5 minutes and then come back to see how things are going. sometimes if he is screaming it is because of wind so I pick him up and hold him til he burps then put him straight back in his cot. If the crying keeps going, I try teeth next and put some gel on his gums - sometimes just the taste is interesting enough to make him snap out of it.
It's also wuite possible that she knows its time for bed and just wants to get it all over with, have a cry and be left alone - both my ds's hated being picked up and rocked and ds2 gets really cross if I try stroking his face or talking to him
hope its going better

Just another thought, my children like listening to storytapes when they go to bed and have done from a very early age, bath, pj's, kiss, lights out, tape on - usually asleep before the tape ends. Must be a story tape though and not music, usually Dick King Smith or Roald Dahl, i think it maybe the steady, continuous tone of voice. Try it you never know, also it is a way of letting them think there not actually all alone in that so very big bedroom, sometimes as they get older this thought can suddendly dawn on them and panic sets in, especially when they know they can do something about it. in the meantime live in hope and keep telling yourself the screaming will not go on forever. good luck