Just read Tracy Hogg and now i'm confused - advice pls - long, sorry

[Sufi]

DS1 is nearly 9wks old. lovely little chap, bf, co-sleeps, rarely cries. he goes to bed at 11pm, sleeps til 4am, wakes up a lot, fusses, back to sleep til 7am ish, feeds and then we both usually go back to sleep for a bit.

he has one nap during the day but sometimes doesn't sleep at all. he cluster feeds every hour from 5pm til bed, and fusses a lot in the evening.

now, was quite happy with all this til I started thinking about going out, going to gym, etc. am also fed up eating my dinner with one hand (as holding him in other!). a friend gave me the tracy hogg book and it's got me in a spin - basically, she says he should be feeding every 3-4 hours, NOT cluster feeding and napping much more - after every feed! and he should be going to bed at 7pm... !

feel like a bad mum and am totally confused. feel like i will never now get my evenings back unless i try and do a routine - but if DS is hungry, how can i?

is cluster feeding at this age still ok? should i grit my teeth and begin a routine, even if DS hates it? does it mean my milk is insufficient? does anyone have any advice?

DS cluster fed until 14 weeks-ish, IIRC. And that wasn't unusual, judging by various MN posts. Tracy Hogg knew nothing, or at least, so little as to qualify as nothing, about breastfeeding. Truly. Ask anyone who knows, and they'll tell you.

also meant to say: i was just trying to let things develop naturally regarding a routine, as he;s such a happy baby that this seemed to be suiting him. was I being hopelessly naive in this - or should I just wait a bit longer before I can expect things to settle down? sorry for rambling - I was just so sure i was doing the right thing and now i'm just totally confused!

thanks Corrie - that's reassuring (sorry for x post). i did wonder about Tracy Hogg as there's not much about bf... or feeding on demand!

I think you need to start this thread in the Breast/Bottle Feeding section, but I would say stick with what you're doing now, he'll fall into a routine when he's ready

You Are Doing the Right Thing! Write it down now, and pin it to the fridge, or bed, or anywhere you will see it regularly. And throw the bloody book away. DS and I worked out a routine, over time, that suited us both. Babies grow, routines evolve. If you were happy with how things were going before (and you clearly were) then get rid of the book. Tracy Hogg didn't know your baby. You, on the other hand, do.

your LO sounds pretty standard to me

your DS is sooo tiny still and it will settle down

The book did help me to identify my DS's sleep cues, but i ignored the rest

Sufi, please go with your instincts as you have obviously done a fantastic job so far. Your DS will sort his own routine out soon, and you will have your evenings free.

My DD had a similar routine to your DS especially in the evenings but the cluster feeds dropped off as she got nearer 12 weeks, so we started putting her to bed at 7 ish with a dreamfeed at 10.30ish. No need to impose a routine on her at all, evenings miraculously freed up!

You are doing the right things, so please stop worrying and ditch the books!

my ds2 is 9mths. He is bf mostly, with the occasional bottle of formula. He sleeps 6-9 then 9-5. I have never tried to put him into a routine, or done anything other than feed on demand. He just got himself there, persevere, it will get easier

I am surprised by this because when I read Tracy Hogg's book there was very little about what a baby "should" do. I don't think she was for forcing a child into a routine, but she does explain ways you can stretch out the gaps between feeds, how you can tell if a child is genuinely hungry or just wants a suck, that sort of thing. I used quite a lot of her advice and usually fed my daughter roughly every 2-2.5 hours in the day and if she cluster fed, then that was what she needed.

I don't think that she advocates imposing a routine on a child, more reaching a compromise that suits you both as you begin to notice that your child does the same things at roughly the same time each day. Most children do fall into some sort of pattern as time goes on and her advice is supposed to help you identify what your child needs and when. It sounds to me as though that is what you are doing. You will get your evenings back eventually, but it is early days right now.

oh thank you, thank you, thank you! I've had a horrid few days feeling like I was going mad, and DS has been really grumpy, which he NEVER is normally (a handful, yes, but grumpy, no!). i thought it was punishment for getting too smug about having such a sweetheart for a son...

ok, book going in the bin... thank you xx

If you want to breastfeed (happily) then continue to do what you are doing and burn give your mate back her book. You and your baby are doing fan-bloody-tastic. Your baby is normal and his sleep and feed patterns are normal.

TH knows next to nothing about breastfeeding and the little she knows, she misapplies to make it useless at best and at worse could lead to you ending your bfing.

If a book is giving you a guilt trip, then don't use it. A book should help a mother make useful decisions about her baby not worry her.

A much better book for babies and mums is The Social Baby by Lynne Murray and Liz Andrews. They are the people behind the children's project

PS, i will link your thread to the Breast and Bottlefeeding board so that others who know more about bf and babies and sleep can chip in.

thanks Kiskidee - wasn't sure whether to post this on the bf board or sleep, so both is great.

ScaryHairy - I think it's cos she says that DS shouldn't be cluster feeding at this age and should also be going for 3 hours between feeds, and he doesn't. and we have no routine whatsoever, and she writes that if you don't start with one straight away you'll have really bad problems later - hence me feeling like a 'bad' mum. But glad it worked for you and will look out for more 'patterns' in DS's behaviour.

Oh, my DD (Bf to 7 mo) never went more than 2.5 hours in the day. I don't think that's too unusual.
The thing about all of these books IMO is that you should take the bits you like, ignore the rest and trust your instincts first. After all, your baby hasn't read the book and the person who wrote it does not know you or your baby!

i think it must be the sleep deprivation - normally I won't listen to anyone (!!), but for some reason I read this one book and started doubting my intuition... that'll teach me

Sufi just to let you know my 10 wk old dd still cluster feeds in the evening too - not quite as much as she used to but still quite a lot. She is a lovely happy baby. She doesn't go to sleep at 7pm either, normally about 9-9.30pm and stays asleep till 4. Sometimes she sleeps a lot in the day, sometimes she doesn't.

I read the Tracy Hogg book too last week. If it gives you a few ideas or tips, fine. If it doesn't, it doesn't matter. Trust your instincts. If your baby is happy, all is fine.

You are doing a fab job. Enjoy your baby.

Everyone here is right. Burn the book (I took great pleasure in binning my copy). I took particular exception to TH as she dressed up her 'advice' as being gentle and responsive to your baby, but it is just as prescriptive and guilt-inducing as all the other 'gurus'.

You are doing brilliantly, you will get your life back but it takes a little while, just go with the flow. A sling will help free your hands to eat dinner!

The key message here is you were happy

Then you read the book and it made you unhappy

Solution = ignore the book!

Sufi I remember having the similair panic to you about routine when dd was about 6 weeks. But as I'm fundamentally lazy I never got round to inventing/imposing one and before long we'd worked one out together. Far less stressful for you and you lo if you read his cues and develop a routine from that. Well when i say routine, all we have is a bedtime routine that sees DD in bed by 7 almost every night for 10-12 sleep. She pretty much does what she feels like for daytime naps and feeds. She is now 6.5 months and a very very easy-going baby, settled, happy, full of confidence. And I haven't wasted hours of her precious early weeks trying to force her into a routine which she didn't need.

You are doing the right thing.

Course I may eat my words when she is an out-of-control 13 yo

dp has just gone online and bought me a sling! he also thought TH sounded like rubbish, but i put that more down to the fact that he never reads 'instruction' manuals than not liking TH!

meg - you're spot on about the dressing up of advice. was on my guard against strict routine/schedules but TH comes across as all caring.

talkto... i'm also lazy but just find life much easier generally when i go with the flow, so reckon it's a gd way to be! i used to be a bit over organised and anal and was soooo miserable. just need to remember that now i'm a mum and there's so much pressure to stick to routines.

thanks everyone - was in tears by the time dp got back from work, so much, much happier now

Same as talktothebess for us. dd had a bedtime routine from v early on in the cot by 7ish every night. She used to cluster feed ALL afternoon every hour from 2pm onwards til she was 3 months old!!

Fell into her own natural routine at 3 months that was v similar to all the regimented ones that babies are forced into from birth not giving them the chance to develop their own rhythm. THs advice on BF is seriously warped ignore it!! Women demand fed for centuries and still do in many other cultures and that's how the human race has survived.

As my CBT course tutor said don't live your life by shoulds coulds and oughts they're unhelpful and will untimately hold you back.

You're doing fine best of luck! xx

Oh bless you so pleased that we have set your mind at ease! Now enjoy that lovely baby

I agree with the others. I absolutely hate her term 'accidental parenting' (I think that's what she calls it.) WTF is that all about? It's dressed up as gentle but it's still 'baby training' which is nonsense and unecessary. Anyway, as others have said. You'll get into your own routine and you'll get some sort of life of your own eventually but you might want to accept that it won't be for a little while and just lighten the pressure from yourself. Plenty of time to go back to the gym etc If you need time out on your own start with short walks.

I second a sling. A godsend and at this age it's easy to just pop them in and let them nap as and when they need. Good luck you sound so much more sensible than I was at that stage.

I didn't know that babies cluster fed and was really alarmed with DD. She is now 14 months and I am still BFing. If you want to continue BF get a box of matches, a metal container and burn that book. Or else use it as a weapon for HVs, GPs etc... when they comment on BFing, you may well need it

My DD only really got into not feeding very frequently and naturally spacing her own feeds at 6.5 months.

These books are completely irrelevant for BFing mothers IMO.

oh what kind of sling did you get?

it's a Moby sling - stretchy fabric one that wraps round. have tried other slings - 'hammock' style ones (didn't get on with it) and DP bought a Baby Bjorn when DS was born, which is great but not suitable for indoor use... oooh, can't wait to get my sling! Do you have one?