4 year old sleep - please help me I'm broken

[2tired4this]

My DD is 4, turns 5 in April. She has never been a good sleeper but it's getting ridiculous now and I'm at the end of my tether. It's affecting my health and the entire family.
She just won't sleep. She won't go to sleep on her own, we have to sit with her and read her a specific story until she falls asleep. If we try to leave her to fall asleep alone she screams the house down, tantrums, throws things, it's awful.
She wakes frequently through the night and insists on getting into my bed. I also have a nearly 2yo who wakes during the night and frequently end up with them both in my bed and I'm getting no sleep, my husband has slept on the sofa for the last two years and it's seriously affecting our marriage.
I've tried getting DD4 to stay in her bed but it just ends up in her staying awake all night and having all night long apocalyptic tantrums. We live in a terraced house and the neighbours hate us.
I'm exhausted and we're all miserable.
I know I also need to get the 2yo out of my bed but I'm trying to focus on one thing at a time and the 4yo is the bigger issue as she's the worst sleeper.
Please help - advice, strategies, anything.

Please can anyone help? I'm dreading bedtime beside myself

Is she scared? What does she say the problem is?

Does she have a nightlight? A teddy or something to cuddle? Can you try the disappearing chair where you start next to her whilst she sleeps then try sitting a bit further away. Then further then shhhing outside the door?

I have similar issues with my 4 year old and I have an 18 month old. Also in a terrace.
I’ve been to the doctors as he has other issues and I’m hoping there will be some improvement. Mine does stay in his own bed but gets up at 4 am every day. We are moving to a detached soon so I’m going to sleep train the 18 month old and hopefully set a play area up for the four year so I don’t get woken in the morning.
Is there a trigger for waking? Cold, needs a wee, needs a drink, hungry? It’s needs a wee with mine
Bribery did work to some extent.
It is easier to tough it out if you are not disturbing others but some children just don’t sleep

I have no advice but I could have written this, except mine is nearly 4, and I have a 1 year old who sleeps in my bed on the other side. We are fortunate enough to have a spare room that DH sleeps in.

My DD also snores very loudly (we have had this checked out) and I struggle to sleep with her next to me. Once I do get to sleep I'm normally woken by 1 year old every couple of hours, and then find it hard to get back to sleep with the snoring.

I want to help DD to sleep independently but when we have tried to do this consistently every single member of the family was up for nights and it wasn't sustainable. She has had surgery and other treatment which meant I needed to be right next to her for a time period, which also has contributed

What helped with my 4 year old was completely unintentional. I was clearing out a cupboard and found a mini reading lamp (Christmas gift I never used). She saw it and asked what it was. I said it was for looking at books in bed and I was saving it until she wanted to fall asleep alone. She didn’t say anything but at bedtime asked for the light, looked at books alone for 30 minutes and fell asleep alone. It was a complete transformation from one day to the next.

I have a 4 year old and just fixed her sleep - after a fairly long period of coming into our bed or needing us with her

On the first night she cried but I stayed nearby in room talking her down

Second night sat on stairs and talked

Then third just say so she could see my feet

Now instead of having to stay with her each time she woke I can just take her for one wee a night and leave her with her teddy to go back to sleep

It was hard at times as I had to stay for a while but life is better on the other side

I am in the same boat. Just before Christmas I took her to an osteopath who specialises in channeling energy after a recommendation from a friend.

Totally out of my comfort zone and not something I would normally do but I was at the end of me tether.

It hasn't solved the issues completely but we now get 50% of nights where she stays in bed and although I still sit with her until she is asleep, it is taking far less time for her to drop off.

If you can afford it, I’d look into getting a sleep consultant. You need to craft a plan and to stick to it.

Get both kids checked out by a GP to rule out anything medical, but then you and your DH probably need to take one kid each and sleep train. This definitely sounds like a habit / behavioural problem to me, so chances are there will be some epic tantrums, but if you don’t react, don’t give in, and do a “silent return to bed” I’m sure you’ll win in the end. It could take 2 weeks, it could take hundreds of “returns to bed”, but consistency is key.

Apologize in advance to the neighbours, but then crack on. If I were them, I’d 100% support you solving this problem once and for all, versus disturbing us a little bit less but for ever…!

You all deserve some sleep. Good luck!!!

My child was the same until age 7!! You are their feeling of comfort and safety, so they only feel able to fall asleep with you near. It's frustrating as hell though, I know.

Can you sleep in a room with one child (separate beds, if possible!) and husband in a room with the other? It's so much less stress at night when you can just put an arm on them when they wake up looking for you. We had this kind of arrangement for a good 5 years but it meant that we actually (usually) got enough sleep.

Just to clarify that what I suggested doesn't mean having to go to bed at the same time as the kids. You may have to comfort them back to sleep a couple times before you go to bed to begin with but hopefully that'll gradually reduce with age.

And for falling asleep, stories then some songs. We still do this but it's usually pleasant... Usually.

My SIL decided to just sleep with the kids and not try and fix the problem, trusting it would sort itself out. The youngest is 11 and she’s still sleeping with him all night. So definitely worth trying something IMO.

At 4 I would definitely be going full super nanny. Watch a few episodes and follow the techniques. Put her to bed and leave the room. Every single time she gets up, put her straight back. This will start off causing mega tantrums, so take booze/chocolate/ear plugs round the neighbours first and start on a day they don't work the following day. Night 1 with my ds he got up 60 times, night 2 30 times, night 3 only a handful. You have to not give in, or she will know she just needs to out last you. I am normally much more fluffy and never sleep trained as babies, but your health and relationship and her sleep are suffering, so something has to give

@SeedsSeedsSeeds

At 4 I would definitely be going full super nanny. Watch a few episodes and follow the techniques. Put her to bed and leave the room. Every single time she gets up, put her straight back. This will start off causing mega tantrums, so take booze/chocolate/ear plugs round the neighbours first and start on a day they don't work the following day. Night 1 with my ds he got up 60 times, night 2 30 times, night 3 only a handful. You have to not give in, or she will know she just needs to out last you. I am normally much more fluffy and never sleep trained as babies, but your health and relationship and her sleep are suffering, so something has to give

100% this!!! Have zero guilt. Sleep is critical for kids’ development and for your sanity, health and relationships.

I DID sleep train my babies, just like my parents sleep trained me and my sibs, and my DH’s parents sleep trained him. We’re all still a close, loving family… I promise! But 8pm to 6am the kids are asleep. That is grown-up time and sleep time. I’m not sure how I’d cope otherwise with three kids under 5!