Arrghhh...5mo thinks sleep is for the weak!

[mumof2pixies]

Help!
My dd has never been a good night time sleeper...and by that I mean she would wake for feeds at night more often than during the day...i.e more often than every 3 hours. I really dont mind getting up in the night to feed...this is my second dc, so I know that sleepness nights wont last forever, its just that I desperately need more than an hour or so of sleep at time!
When she was born she would cluster feed in the eve til about 9pm, and then she would sleep til 3am..fantastic I thought...although she wouldnt sleep well at all after 3am waking every hour. So I thought about doing a dream feed at 10, but that was a big mistake! I did it in the hope that she would then take the long stretch of sleep after the dream feed...but it didnt work! Instead, she would wake 3 hours after the dream feed. So I stopped it, however, she decided to wake up herself for a feed at 10...which shes done ever since! Oopps!
Some nights she is okay in that she will wake up every 3 hours all night...however the majority of the time its every 2 hours...sometimes every hour! I just breastfeed her and sometimes she will go back off to sleep. However, sometimes (like last night) she doesnt want to feed, and instead wants to look around the room, and have a chat! I try not to engage with her, but this doesnt deter her at all! I end up putting her back to bed, and hear her chatting away...and I can only assume she goes to sleep for a bit as I just pass out!
Ive tried to do everything right and teach her good sleep habits...I dont feed her to sleep, we have a good bed time routine, she is still swaddled because of her windmill arms...although I put her hands to her face so she can suck her fingers...so Im at a loss as to what else to do. Im also worried about her waking up ds who is 3, as he is a nightmare to get back to sleep, and if he wakes in the night once or twice it becomes a habit very quickly.
Should I just accept this is the way she is?

How is her daytime feed/sleep pattern? Is she getting plenty of milk between 7am and 7pm?

Could be she has her day and nights muddled up - especially if she is wanting to 'play' during the night?

If you are sure she is getting enough milk during the day then maybe trying to settle her during the night without bf is the way to go?

Babies love their own wee routine and love to snuggle into Mum 24 hours if they could but this much interupted sleep can't be good for her (or you!) in the long run.

sleep perchance to dream...

i was about to post almost the same thread

ds2 is 5.5mo and an awful sleeper. last night i was up with him hourly or thereabouts throughout the night. sometimes i feed him, other times i walk him around, occasionally he'll go back off if snuggled up with me and i do a comedy lying-down jiggle

am exhausted too

can't bring myself to do cc. well, tbh, have considered it but am loathed to try in case it disturbs ds1 (2.7yo) whose nights we have only recently cracked

no answers from me, but i'm here as moral support

was going to post the same re my 6month old. arrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!

Tutter, Tipex and naturopath...how were your nights last night?!!
DD did quite well in that she woke every 3 hours, much better than the erractic waking weve had over the last few weeks...although her 5.30 feed was rubbish...she hardly had anything and just wanted to play. Its so hard to ignore them when theyre grinning at you! Why do they have to be so enduring in the middle of the night?! She went back to sleep though, and woke an hour later, shouting at me! Tried to rock her back off, but gave up in the end and just got up!
Been thinking about writing down all her sleep and feed patterns. After your post foxymagoo I started to wonder whether she was getting enough milk etc, so making a 'diary' might help. Although she does feed every 3 hours during the day...and sometimes if I try to sneak in a feed before we go out anywhere when shes not due one, she just throws it up! So Im not sure Id be able to get anymore into her during the day...however if shes getting too much milk during the night then thats not going to help iyswim...viscous cycle! I think Im definitely going to try and get her to sleep without feedin her if she wakes before shes due a feed in the night, ie after 2 hours not 3! I'll just have to risk it and hope she doesnt wake ds!
I was also wondering whether in a way Ive got her snacking in the night? Because Im so tired when she wakes sometimes I would just pick her up and feed her, and then glance at the clock and it would only have been a couple of hours since i last fed her. So maybe then she takes a snack and doesnt get any hind milk...but would fall asleep, but then wake up hungry really quickly...arrghh!
Mentioned to dh about perhaps taking her to see a cranial osteopath, but he doesnt think its worth it! Tried to remind him hes not the one having to get her back to sleep all the time! But then he mentioned that she'll start teething soon so they'll be no sleep then either! He seems to think that we were spoilt with ds, but I just thought ds was normal...but maybe this is normal! I dont expect dd to sleep though, even though ds was sleeping through at her age...but he was bigger than her, on formula and on solids. Im not saying that any of those things were directly responsible for him sleeping so well, but the circumstances were completely different. I would just have expected her to be sleeping for longer stretches by now...as sometimes I feel like I still have a newborn!

It does sound like your dd has gotten used to having during the night snacks and is waking not from hunger but for cuddles..

You need to break the cycle by not giving her milk during the night so she is really hungry for her first feed of the day which will have the knock on affect of her taking more at each daytime feed and your milk supply should be bountiful as you haven't been using it during the night. One of things I remember is that tiredness can affect your supply and it becomes a vicious circule of baby needing fed more often as they are not getting enough of the fatfilled hind milk if they are snacking..

I never did controlled crying with ds rather the 'pick up/put down' routine recommended by the Baby Whisperer. You stay with your lo and pick them up when they are distressed but the minute they settle you put them back down in their cot. It really worked for ds and they don't ever feel 'abandoned' as you are there the whole time but they get the idea that you are not playing with them or feeding them.

The first night you do this will be v. v hard as it is nie-on impossible to not give in and feed a crying baby but remember you are only doing it for one night to hopefully kick start her taking more during her waking hours. Once you are confident she is taking most of her calories between 7am and 7pm you can be reassured that her night time waking is out of habit for snuggles rather than 'feed me' hunger! As you say she is no longer a newborn and should be able to go longer than 3 hours...

Another tact to try is to space out her day time feeds to every 4 hours rather than 3 as again this would make her wolf down her feeds..

Hope this helps.

This thread caught my eye because last year almost around this time a few of us who had 4/5 month old babies started the Sleep is for the Weak support thread which has been rattling on ever since with new people coming and going. Basically, in summary what we've discovered over the last year is that 4/5 months are classic 'when sleep went bad' months. They coincide with a magnificent growth spurt and developmental shift and so the long periods of wakefullness in the night, the frequent feedings are very very normal for this age. (hard but normal). It will get better, you may also find a slight regression around 6 months and also 9 months as the same thing happens.

I think at this age it is likely that the baby is hungry at night, even if they've 'in theory' fed what they're 'supposed to' during the day. They're all going to have different feeding requirements so one baby may be able to go 5 hours and another can only manage 2. I'd say, do what it takes to get you through this rough patch. We started co-sleeping at this point because getting up to feed 3 times a night is a joke but if you can feed laying down you just need to pull DC close and feed and doze at the same time. I'm of the school of thought that thinks it'll get better on it's own. On the whole my DD now sleeps pretty well (teething and illness aside) and it's just been a matter of time and maturity.

her maturity btw. Mine hasn't come in to it

Ditto most of what Tipex said.

Last night was pretty bad - one of the worst - ds woke up maybe 8-10 times between 7pm and 11pm - had to stay up with him watching tv for about an hour. Then finally gave in and took him into bed with me - still woke up a few times to feed/snack. Yes, I usually give in and feed him as well.

I try putting him down awake, using the mobile etc. - might work for about 10 mins, then he starts crying. Won't take a dummy. Holds out his arms for me and makes fish faces signalling his wanting to feed.

Sometimes I think he's hungry, sometimes just wants me there. Sometimes it's his eczema itching. Sometimes I think it might be his reflux resurfacing.

He won't eat solids and is exclusively bf still. Won't take the hypoallergenic formula.

This evening has already woken around 5-6 times.

then again, during the day, he's such a happy cutie!

am also dairy and soya free!

By the way, we have now got silk clothes for him (on the NHS!) which are supposed to work as well as steroids. Should aid sleep.

He stayed at my parents last night (as did we from 1am) and had a good 5-hr stretch! Tonight has to be the best yet - he's only woken up once so far since 7:30pm!!

sorry, far too many exclamation marks. Just too excited over his sleeping well for the first time in months. (! )

Just like to thanks everyone for their replies to my op! Thats great news naturopath! Im really pleased for you! DD's sleep has improved a little, which is good. If she wakes up before the 3 hours mark I stroke her head until she goes back off. For the last couple of nights shes woken every 3 hours, which is much better than every hour! Just have to hope she'll start to go a bit longer soon!
Thanks for your suggestions foxymagoo...I did babywhisperer all the way with ds and he took to it like a dream, so when dd arrived i wanted to do the same as I really like her approach, but dd wouldnt have any of it! She's only just fallen into the 'easy' routine now, of her own accord...shes a stubborn little pixie! I do wonder though whether I was a bit more determined with ds with regard to sleep than with dd...i think because I didnt want dd waking up ds I would just feed her straight away if she cried during the night, whereas with ds i wouldnt do that....especially as he was bottle fed...there was no way i would have gone all the way downstairs every 2 hours to heat a bottle up! I probably patted him back to sleep if I didnt think he was due a feed.
Hope everyone had a great new year!

Meant to add in my last post that i definitely think dd had been getting far too much milk at night, as she would wake up in the morning and even though she would be due a feed, she would go on the breast for a minute...and that would be it! To be honest i would expect her to have a really good feed in the morning, but that has never been the case...but hopefully now that Im not putting her on the breast every single time she wakes in the night, she should have a better appetite first thing in the morning. Even though Ive managed to get dd to only wake every 3 hours now instead of more frequently, sh hardly took any milk from me when she woke at midnight, so to be honest I think she could have gone from 9pm to 3am. She had a few mouthfuls and then was looking round the room alert as anything, cooing and gurgling at me!