Sleep routine

[Santatizer]

My DD is 21 weeks but was born at 35 weeks, so for sleep development, really only 16 weeks. She has always been good at night & once down tends to only need one feed between bedtime and 6-7am. It's daytime naps that are the problem. She was sleeping well for day naps in her basket downstairs, settling herself with her thumb etc. Now it is a distressing battle. She seems to resist and resist and will remove her own thumb rather than drop off. She cries inconsolably. I try to get her down for a sleep as soon as she shows signs of tiredness but she gets into a state and nothing we can do works except the pram, which is fine but we're exhausted and don't always want to have to go out in the pram. Does anyone have any advice as to how to sort this - last night she was so overtired by bedtime due to lack of daytime sleep that we had the whole palaver at bedtime too!

Needing extra help to sleep in the daytime is normal. Thus usually takes the form 9f sucking and movement as two ways to comfort baby.

A dummy may well be much easier to manage than thumb sucking.

For movement, try naps in a bouncy chair or park the pushchair in the house and push back and forth on the spot.

I agree with FATE I would try introducing a dummy. In my experience it is very rare for babies who don’t have dummies to be able to settle to sleep without adult input, unless they have been left to cry it out. Also are you using white noise?

@Santatizer keep trying with the dummy. As PP poster says, non-dummy users need significantly more parental input to sleep without crying at this age. You're on the cusp of If you don't establish it now you never will, because after 5 months old it's much harder to properly establish.

Say you don't though - then the answer is to (a) tolerate your baby crying more when going to sleep. Or (b) Add in lots of extra parental help.

(a) would involve staying with your baby, not leaving baby to cry. You would put baby down in the cot fully awake, then pat and shush until asleep, all done in the cot. This is going to involve a lot of crying if you don't establish a dummy for comfort sucking. So don't assume that crying means it isn't working. Crying is inevitable and you should be expecting it and emotionally prepared for it yourself.

(b) Would involve things like feeding to sleep and leaving baby on breast/in arms, rocking to sleep in your arms, contact naps, cosleeping, cuddling to sleep. Or pushchair movement, car ride naps, bouncer rocking. There probably will still be some crying with any of these (apart from feeding to sleep) because of nature's push for babies to comfort suck. Without it, you tend to get baby crying to some degree. So again, don't assume crying means method isn't working - crying is inevitable.

pram outside... creates and unsustainable sleep associated

I've picked this out because it exemplifies lack of understanding of baby sleep physiology. There's a lot for me to try and summarise into a few paragraphs here, but I'll try.

Your baby will need your help to feel comforted until about preschool age. Babies/toddlers that sleep independently don't do so without any comfort, they use props to help them comfort - dummy, blankies, self soothing movements. At 5 months your baby doesn't have the motor skills to even do any of those - they need help to use/do their comfort mechanism.

Unless your (very bright) 21 week old has the emotional development of a 4 year old and the fine motor skills of a 12 month old - then baby isn't physically capable of soothing without your help in some way.

The pram/bouncer is an independent way of allowing movement to comfort. By that I mean it's easier to wean off that the others, on a journey towards independant sleep. The line I quoted suggests you are expecting independant sleep right now. That's what I'm trying to explain as unreasonable.

we suspect she is...

[CRINGE]

My eldest daughter was walking at just turned 7 months. My second daughter at 9 months....

Absolutely none of that is of any relevance whatsoever to sleep. And it's offensive to suggest those who's babies sleep well are less bright.

Oh give it a rest. She’s a FTM and said herself she doesn’t know if it’s relevant, she’s not insulting other babies or saying they’re dumb if they sleep well.

My LO is 6 months and has fought naps since 5 weeks. Also won’t take a dummy. Sleeps well at night with (normally) one wake up. We had to do the pram and then hold her to sleep to get her to go down.

Eventually we would leave her to self settle in cot and not rush in if she cried (she does). She’ll normally drift off in about 3 mins if she’s really tired. Getting her to go back to sleep is really difficult if she wakes so we do use the pram to extend a day nap.

Mine will only do 40 in the morning and 1.5 hours at lunch. It’s hit and miss if she’ll do another 30 on the afternoon.

Try the Bibbs dummies - cherry shaped and much easier for small babies to suck and hold on to. Only ones my DS will take. He can soothe with those easily.

In my experience through, Day sleep takes time. Developmentally, before 6m they can't link sleep cycles easily during the day so proper, consistent naps just won't happen. Also, self settling Won't really happen before then either simply because they don't have the dexterity to replace dummy etc. So, I'd just wait it out until baby is post 6m to try anything as you'll likely find a natural routine falls into place by then. I get how annoying it is though- I'm currently sat trapped under my 4mo during his nap as he needs me to soothe him. I'd love a routine!

I do also think you either have a sleeper or not. I don't think being bright really has much impact at this point! All babies at 4m typically seem to be easily distracted - you can see this with feeding as it becomes harder to get full feeds down them as they pop on and off the boob/bottle at any distraction! Not being mean... just thought I'd throw in my 2c!

@FinallySomeNormality thanks v much - definitely see you're not being mean! Will try to Bibbs dummies :-)

I have briefly read through. The way i managed to get my 4/5 month old to sleep during the day without a crutch of me was following @fatedestiny advise. She was a nightmare sleeper and I did EVERYTHING fate suggested, I searched everything fate has written on in the forum. I did bouncer, pram in same spot rocking. White noise and a dummy, my LO cannot and will not go to sleep without her dummy. All hell would break loose.

Now I have a 7 month old goes down every night and naps independently awake and soothes herself as long as she has dummy 🤷🏼‍♀️

As mentioned I do think without dummy there will be more tears.

I understand your knackered, but seems like your getting a good night's sleep - with one feed? I know older babies having 3 feeds a night.

Maybe try pram and rocking back and forth in kitchen?

Thank you but we have honestly tried all this already. The white noise does help sometimes but not every time. She simply won't take the dummy. We've tried it again today. She accepted it for twenty seconds then removed it with her own hand and got more and more upset every time I put it back in, spitting it out and crying round it if gently held in. I was all for the dummy before she was even born as my elder DC had them and they worked so well for him but she honestly just doesn't want them.

I've tried all the things suggested. She knows if the pram is just being moved back and forth on the spot (don't ask me how) and wakes up if already asleep in there / definitely won't go off to sleep that way. Agree that Fate clearly has a lot of knowledge but those things just aren't working for my DD. I will keep trying though!

Have you tried tapping the dummy when it's in Dcs mouth? That tends to encourage them to suck rhythmically. Sorry probs already tried it I know, but I wasn't aware of it helping until recently!

Do you have a snooze shade for the pram? I usually pop that on if rocking pram indoors as it means he can't be stimulated by surroundings as much and gets bored (but I don't often actually rock in pram indoors as DS does sleep in his cot happily.... just not for very long!).

Oh yes as pp said. Tapping dummy really helped my LO initially.

And yep I have to cover pram if I'm out to get her to sleep, which may work if your inside. I'm the opposite have rubbish naps in the world 😂 Nosey little girl I have 😂

I do have a Snooze Shade yes - we use it outside all the time. I'm not super keen on bringing the prams indoors just because the wheels get all mucky (we keep them in the garage) but the Snooze Shade is great for outdoors definitely!

I had not heard about tapping the dummy, thank you! Will give this a try.

I wasn't either with the pram but that's what I did in end 🤷🏼‍♀️ sits in my living room now. Pop a towel down if your worried.

Nap time I bung her in there. Pop white noise on, dummy in and walk away 😂 I'm a nice mum I promise. I still like her in the same room as me for naps not sure why. Think it's a comfort for me being so close, don't think she cares 😂 . I must take her to her cot at some point..... 🤔 But to worried to undo my hard work.

Im sure you are but I found consistency was the key. Your LO is now used to going out for a nap, I would say that's the crutch so to speak. You need to break that but won't happen immediately, have you tried going for a short walk, then parking up at home. I do this sometimes for last nap 😂 I get her to sleep then head back home and sit on my doorstop watching the world go by. My neighbours must think I'm barmy. I actually really enjoy this as I can't go in as it will disturb her and she will wake and I obviously can't leave her there. I get a nice little rest 😂

Also I'm sure fate mentioned get lo to sleep in cot independently. I did it by holding chest and tapping dummy until she got used to sucking dummy. Then I would hold her top thigh and hold chest. I know people say give lo eye contact - my LO sees my eyeballs and its game over shes stimulated and won't go sleep. Then gradually retreat, it does take a long time and isn't simple. It must have taken a good few weeks then all of a sudden we had no movement or contact naps.

My best advice is pick your way of what you want your baby to sleep say in pram in living room and persevere with it, it will take time.

I remember one day I was in a cafe eating and lo wanted to go sleep so covered her over dummy in white noise and just kept going backwards and forwards, I was shocked as well as my family she went to sleep - she was a contact napper. I was her crutch, but I'm not now - she wants white noise and dummy.

I'm waffling now.... 🤔

I’m with @FATEdestiny on this, and find your second post so cringe worthy OP! Shoehorning in your unfounded belief in your tiny baby’s intelligence into a thread about sleeping is stealth bragging at its finest. It adds no value to your initial question and is unnecessary in detail - it’s a stealth brag, which is fine, but then others are allowed to find it a touch desperate, and cringe accordingly. If you think your child won’t sleep because they are intelligent, then what’s your actual question OP? Because if you are right, then there’s nothing that can be done, so why post if not to brag? Am I supposed to congratulate you on the Oxbridge degree, and the above average intelligence DC, because I am not understanding why they warrant a mention either? Again, it’s fine if you want to brag, but at least own it, and the raised eyebrows that follow.

Having said that, maybe I should be thanking you, because I have a 7-month old who is one of the worst sleepers imaginable, and it never occurred to me this could have any bearing on her intelligence (seriously, who even Google’s that?!)… but maybe I will start bragging that I have the next Hawking or Einstein!!!

Thanks, there's loads of great advice here. @canyoutoleratethis nope, no congratulations required and I have no need at all to brag about anything to complete strangers on the internet! I came asking for advice and ideas, which I've got. Can't control how some of you choose to perceive the info I've given, expected some of this type of response, having been on Mumsnet for some time. Won't be responding further as got what I was looking for - which, in case it wasn't clear, was advice on a sleep routine for daytime naps and not commentary or judgement on the wider context. Still, I wrote it and I guess this is Mumsnet, so it's fair game! Shan't be back to this one. Thanks for all the useful advice from those who gave it.

It's just that she was doing it so well a few weeks back.

Because you have a normal 4-5 month old.

The details of it are to do with how sleep physiology changes at around 3-4 months old. There is a period calmed The Fourth Trimester - this is the first 3-4 months of life. During this time sleep is passive, as it was in the womb.

Passive sleep means that as long as all needs are met, baby will be asleep. So expect for baby to wake for things like hunger or being uncomfortable or in pain. As soon as these needs are met, baby can go to the passive state of being asleep again.

Past 4 months sleep changes. It becomes an active endeavour. This change is a progression and is perminant- you will never go back to passive sleep. Sleep develops into cycles of light and deep sleep, it now takes active work for baby to both go to sleep and stay asleep.

I feel like we have tried everything

I don't doubt that. It's usual for first time parents to underestimate how much help is needed and to go though a long list of things in pursuit of The Answer, discounting them all.

I put it to you that you've been neither persistent enough or consistent enough with any. Pick a method and the just keep going.

I'm not actually a first time parent (have a teenage DC) but just don't remember it being this difficult when he was tiny.