How to establish a routine?

[Eggling]

Hello all, hoping for some advice on 4 mo DD. Her sleep is all over the place - night time is dreadful but I assume we are in 4 month regression territory so hoping we can ride that out. Naps are also a disaster, and have been since birth tbh. I'm starting to really worry that she's not getting enough sleep - it's not unheard of for her to be awake 10 hours straight and 5/6 hours is fairly common, despite my efforts. Feeling a bit crap that I can't help her sleep! (Plus obviously I'm knackered)

She's been really alert since about 10 days old, and seems to have major FOMO so fights sleep like crazy. Best bet for her falling asleep is in the sling or carrier, but it often takes a good hour or more before she gives in and she will only nap 15-20 minutes. Sometimes she just screams and won't go to sleep at all. Occasionally she falls asleep in the pram but most often wants to be carried so screams until she's picked up. She does seem to kind of doze while feeding sometimes, used to feed to sleep for naps but has stopped now and wakes up if I take her off.

Bedtime is 7-ish, she goes down ok after a bit of fuss. Often wakes briefly 40 minutes later - considered moving bedtime back but she just gets grumpier and grumpier then. Up every hour or 2 after that.

My ideal would be up at 7, nap at 9, nap at 12, nap at 3, bed at 7. However I can't work out how to get her into a routine when she won't actually go to sleep? She's currently in the sling, been awake since 5.45 and yawning loads but just wide awake staring round. She won't take a dummy, have tried different kinds.

Do I just give up and accept that she will fall into a pattern when she's ready or should I persevere with trying to get one? If so, how? Any advice appreciated, I think I've read everything on the internet about sleep and I'm more confused than ever!

Do you swaddle her? Mine had to be swaddled ( I was using love to dream swaddles at that age with the arms up feature) , dummy in ( you persevere with this as some of them are picky about what dummies they have), pushed into a dark corner, white noise ( I used the fisher price sleep cloud in the pram and then moved to outside of pram once she’d conked out) and the pram jiggled/ rocked.

If they wake up after 15 mins you just persevere with the rocking. It is really hard. My dd was bloody minded and wanted to be awake and resisted naps. She’s still bloody hard work at ten months old and stubborn but you have to be more stubborn!

Hi, thanks for responding! We stopped swaddling as she's starting to roll, she hated it anyway and screamed if she was swaddled. Have honestly tried and keep trying dummies, she spits them out and screams. Will keep trying though! Holding one in her mouth and tapping now.

I do try and put her back to sleep if she wakes after 15 mins, occasionally she will but more often just screams.

So at what I think should be nap times shall I put her in the sling, hold dummy in and walk around? Have white noise on my phone too which she also has at night.

We had a lot of trouble with sleep, partly ours just seems to need less than average, partly gas/colic so she wasn't comfy lying down, then we were both overtired too. What sorted us out was Infacol for the colic, catching up on sleep any way possible, even her sleeping on me sleeping sitting up while husband watched us both for safety, or feed her to sleep on a pillow then hand pillow over and kip! We used Huckleberry app to know when to nap but it sounds like you have a good schedule. Then I just do what works for her, music and feeding or pushchair, but they are all so special and different! Good luck 😊

Hi Op, if you've read everything then I assume you've read about awake windows? My son had gone to 3 naps at 4 months but they were always different times depending on when he woke up and how long previous naps have been. I think you're much better doing that than trying to stick to times.

My son at that age would only contact nap if I wanted to be stationary. He would nap in the carrier or the pram but only if I was moving for the whole duration! Getting him to sleep for naps was/is a matter of shear perseverance and just keeping going until he conked out. It was a revelation reading about awake windows in Lyndsey Hookway's book though as my son doesn't show sleepy cues til pretty late and following the windows I was trying to get him down sooner than I would have before but it made it loads easier.

Good luck, you'll get there.

Thanks everyone, yes I've read about wake windows which are 2 hours max at her age, I start trying around 1.5 hours as she also doesn't seem to have clear signals but maybe I should try sooner. It's helpful to hear others have had similar issues, all my friends seem to have good sleepers so I feel like I'm doing something really wrong! I'll keep trying as consensus seems to be that she does need that routine.

Mine didn’t like normal swaddled but the arms up ones are stretchy and they can still rub their faces. I used a breathing monitor and kept her in the room so could still use it past rolling. Sometimes with babies stuff they seem to hate ( dummies/ swaddles) you have to persevere with because they need it. Having hands out was far too much stimulation for my already nosy/ active dd. They need to be given no other option but to sleep! What others have said about awake windows is right too. It may feel like you spend the whole day revolving around naps but needs must really

Hi @UnBeso sorry you're in the same boat! Yes tried a bouncy chair, she didn't mind it when she was younger but just really hates being put down at all now. I don't even mind her sleeping in the sling or carrier I just want her to get enough sleep! She is now asleep in the sling, I fed her to sleep then out her in. I think I'll try keeping a closer eye on wake windows and maybe trying for a nap sooner. It makes it hard to do anything but try and get her to go to sleep though and we do have to leave the house sometimes 🙈

Gosh yes leaving the house is absolutely essential, it really helped us getting in daylight as early as poss in the morning, so your bodies knows what time of day it is. Also with ours the grizzling tends to stop when out, even when nothing else is working.

@FTMbg yes she loves being outside, I try and get out with her a couple of times a day, maybe I need to bring this a bit earlier prior to first nap. Will keep trying!

@Eggling

Sorry, I pressed post too soon so my post may not have made much sense! New to MumsNet so still getting used to all this haha.

Oh tell me about it - some days it feels like I've spent the whole day getting her down for a nap, especially if she only naps for 30 mins each time. I try to put her down well before I know she'll need a nap so she has plenty of time to drift off before she's overtired if that makes sense.

The wake window thing really confused me at first as I found different sites said different times, and I didn't know whether it was all a load or crap haha. Every baby is different but the way we found what our baby could cope with was seeing how long she played for before getting grumpy. So, for example, put down on play mat. Pick up when she starts getting grumpy and make sure she doesn't have wind, need changing etc. Put back down to play. Then as soon as she starts getting grumpy again we assume she's tired and put her down for a nap.

All goes out the window as soon as we leave the house because she's too interested in the world around her haha if I had a pound for everytime someone has said to me "take her out in the pram, she'll drift off if you go on a walk" 🙄

@UnBeso oh yes I know! Next door's little one is a few weeks younger and falls asleep as soon as she goes on the pram. DD will sometimes tolerate the pram if she can see what's going on around her but rarely lasts in there even around the block before screaming to be picked up. I think I'll have to stick with feeding to sleep when at home as it's the only thing that works. Will keep trying. So often though I try and get her to nap and she just won't 🤷‍♀️

I found with the wake window thing that after a while you establish what the wake window for your baby is. And then it gradually expands with time. A lot of Internet sites seem quite out I think. Many suggest 2 naps with wake windows up to 4 hrs for a 6 month old. My son is 9 months and has only just gone to 2 naps and 4 hrs awake is his absolute max now, would've been a mess after 4 hrs awake at 6 months. I find my son is generally somewhere in the middle of what Lyndsey Hookway suggests for each age and the first wake window is much shorter. I think at 4 months it was maybe 1hr15 or 1hr30? Hard to remember now, but her book 'Let's talk about your new family's sleep' is well worth buying.

Also you're definitely not alone with struggling with naps! It's always been a struggle here too. In reality it's a good thing your little one is so interested in life and doesn't just want to sleep all the time. It means she's inquisitive and will learn fast! It does mean the baby period will be very hard work for you though, and it's like that for me too.

Thank you @LGBirmingham I'll experiment with wake windows. She's been up since 11-ish except for maybe a snooze while feeding an hour or so ago so might try for another nap soon 😅 we'll get there in the end!

Perhaps she's just getting by on micro naps whilst feeding then? When you try to get her down for a proper nap there's not enough sleep pressure because of the micro nap on the breast?

I've remembered one way I was doing naps at this point. I'd feed him to sleep in one of those IKEA chairs that bounces. Sometimes it might have been a case of feed get up rock and sing, feed again etc... on a difficult nap. Then let him sleep in my lap, then when it got near to the point he might prematurely wake I'd gently lay my hand on his chest and start bouncing the chair. Kept him asleep most of the time. Sometimes if he more fully roused I would quickly shove him on the breast and he might go back off after 15 mins. Terrible for sleep associations but it worked, would often take 2hr naps. But I think people worry about those too much. I did the unlstching before fully asleep thing too and now often he unlatches himself and just goes to sleep beside me rather than feeding to sleep, andcan also put himself back to sleep at the beginning of the night so nothing is fixed. I think it's best just to do what works to get them the sleep at the time!

Thank you @LGBirmingham! We've had a couple of minor successes with naps, she's currently asleep on my chest. She definitely has little snoozes while feeding, sometimes if I take her off she wakes but sometimes not so I'll try and keep an eye on that. Sleep pressure is a good point too.