11 wk crying loads before evening sleep

[chipperchick]

For the past week, DD is crying for an hour before settling in evening. She has often been unsettled at this time of day (7pm ish), but this had improved around 9/10 wks. She is now screaming hard for a long time, its distressing for all of us, and ends up with DH and me arguing over what we are doing wrong.

During evening feed she becomes very sleepy but also fractious. As soon as she comes off the breast, she cries - part way through feed to wind or swap sides, and also at end of feed (I usually have to take her off as she falls asleep). I can't find a way of finishing feed without her crying unconsolably. My milk feels low at this time of day - could that be the problem (think this could be why she gets so sleepy as feed is so slow)?

Or, fom reading other threads it seems she may be overtired, but I don't know? And how to solve this? She sleeps well at night, but not during the day - never more than 40 mins at home (can do 2 hours plus in pram when out!).

I tried moving bedtime earlier tonight, but didn't work - still howled for 45 mins. Please help.

We had pretty much the same thing with DS - you have my sympathies. We did get through it through eventually - firstly I expressed milk earlier in the day and gave it in a bottle - finishing off with breast for comfort if I felt he needed it.
I bought bedtime forward so that he bathed at 5.45 and then had a consistent routine that involved a dark room, wrapped up in a blanket, the same lullaby playing on his music box and sat really quietly with him. It took a while but gradually once he was full and had the consistent sleep cues he gradually started to settle without crying. He is nearly 6 months now and I really look forward to that time of the day as it's now very peaceful, but there was a time that I honestly never thought that would be the case and that he would always howl for at least an hour before bed! I think it was part the above and part age as well - as he got older it got easier.
We still average 45 min naps so not sure how to help with that one! Occasionally get a couple of hours at lunchtime but seems to coincide with a particularly busy morning (eg. baby swimming!). Good luck...

We always had short naps to until about 8 months when they miraculously sorted themselves out. Evening crying way also quite common, in fact bathtime was generally a screamfest which also had me and DH screaming at each other too. My thinking is that all babies are different so it's a case of finding a solution that works for you and your family. These are the kind of things that worked for me.

Keep the night time 'routine' simple. Perhaps bath in the morning as baths can be quite stimulating. AG's suggestions for a routine are good, keep it low key. Don't worry about your milk supply, if you just feed on demand it'll be fine (obviously I'm not expert but I think I worried too much about milk supply when overtiredness was probably more of a factor I think in my case I was constantly shoving my breast in DD mouth and all she wanted was to go to sleep .)

I would also suggest you invest in a sling. You may find she sleeps for longer in the day if she's close to you. Or, why not lay down with her? again, snuggling her close to you may make her sleep longer hence 'solving' the overtiredness. (I use inverted commas because i don't think there is a miracle solution unfortunately)

You could also try and feed her laying down at night and move her into her cot when she's asleep. Keeps it nice and cozy and relaxed. Hopefully some of that will help.

(You and DH try and relax, it's so hard with a tiny baby but it will get easier, this stage doesn't last long and you'll need to keep strong for one another, I say this as part of a couple that have spent the last 15 months blaming one another for a lack of sleep! and it's not good )

You have my heartfelt sympathies. If you feel it is due to tiredness I would second ginger's suggestion of using a sling. If she's your first baby then you might want to do what I do - which is whatever it takes to get her sleeping, in my case rock him to sleep then let him nap on my shoulder while I potter around online . I think we're tentatively coming out the other side of this (mine's 19 weeks) but it's been getting the daytime sleep improved (for us that means 5 x 45 minutes every day!) that's made the difference, helped along by a very, very basic bedtime routine. And also time, of course!

I think a big part of it is them not being too tired at bedtime and this has three contributing factors as I see it - total time spent sleeping in the day, amount of activity/stimulation experienced in the day, and time between waking from last nap and bedtime. I can predict bedtime success each night by taking account of these factors for the day in question. You'll be amazed at how quickly you learn how much you can get away with, and I found at your DC's age my DS was becoming easier to read, which will help you.

If it's any consolation, hitting 4 months has seen a general improvement in things for us, and it really isn't long before you're there.

Thanks AG, Ginger and CSB so much for the advice!

I may continue trying with earlier bedtime, to see if that helps. But today she had afternoon feed at 2.45pm, so am worried that if I try to feed her before about 6pm, then she won't feed properly (usually goes 3.5 - 4 hours between feeds). Also how late can they nap without this affecting going to bed?

I am doing bedtime routine etc with bath, but might try suggestion of bathing at another time of day, to shorten/simplify routine. She gets stimulated very easily - is a very alert baby!

I have a Close sling which I have tried occassionaly, but she seems cramped and uncomfortable in it now bigger (I have her cradle style) - doesn't sleep in it too well, and wakes when I move around. Should I put her upright in it now she's bigger? Will also try lying down with her in day to see if that will help her sleep for longer.

I find it difficult to tell how much daytime sleep she needs. She wakes after 30 mins at lunchtime, but cries and looks tired, but won't go back to sleep. Then afternoon seems so long, and tiring for her. She won't just 'drop off' by herself on playmat/wherever - I have to go through process of putting her down - and its easy to miss the cues. I read though that babies need at least one long (2 hours ish) sleep during the day, but only seem to get this if I go out, which I can't do every day!! She has 3 naps a day - do you think she needs more if they are only 30-45 mins?

CSB - how do you fit in 5x45 min naps?!

How old is she chipper? I think 1 -1.5 hours awake time between naps would be about right for upto 4 months??? (can't remember tbh)

You could try a different position for the sling. My DD only ever slept longer than 30 mins if I slept with her and hated being put down. She would also wake megga cranky and almost angry like 'how dare you leave me on my own' so I guess she's just a child that likes comfort. You may find that your DD just isn't very confident about being left on her own to sleep. It's quite a big ask of a small baby really. She will sleep if she feels confident, happy, warm, with you, comfortable so see how the napping with her and slinging goes.

Are you bf'ing? If so, just feed on demand in the evening. You could just try chucking the whole feed routine thing out the window for a week or so and see what happens. She may suprise you. Or you may find a routine is actually what works for you better. It's difficult because you have to find what suits you. I would be feeding pretty constantly between 5 and 7 if I remember rightly and I don't think that's uncommon.

Good luck, you sound wonderful and open to new ideas which is lovely. I was so determined to do it my way but DD had other ideas and we fought it out until she eventually won

Hi again chipper. My DS is really alert too - they don't know when or how to switch off, these babies, and it means we have to do it all for them, and it's a bloody nightmare!

Try the sling upright - DS goes to sleep much quicker that way, he wriggles in the cradle position and gets himself upset. Re the waking up tired and cranky - for us this happens after 45 mins and is basically because as soon as DS hits light sleep he wakes up again, even though he's still tired. In theory waiting at the time they'll usually wake and rocking/feeding/patting or whatever you do to get them to sleep should help them to fall right back into sleep before they even really wake up. In reality I've only had limited success with this and only recently but you might want to try. Apparently if you do it every day they learn to sleep for longer (although if your DD is anything like my DS that's quite optimistic ). I would offer feeds whenever you want to - my boobs are my prime tool in the battle against the overtired monster. If DS wakes every 45 minutes he quite often gets a boob in his face every 45 minutes (and then repays me by vomiting ).

Personally I ignore the stuff about late naps interfering with bedtime because as it is any sleep is worthwhile and it's not like I have a problem with him trying to sleep more in the day and less at night so when he goes to sleep then he goes to sleep and that's just fine - but you'll probably have to experiment to see if it affects your DD. In our case we have no routine in terms of what time things happen (tried all sorts of early bedtimes and just ended up calling it bedtime when I had mustered the energy to keep resettling every 45 minutes rather than getting DS up!).

From my experience if she still seems tired and grumpy then yes, she needs more sleep (my experience of one baby, though!) - hence my 45 minute nap hell! I am lucky that he's my first so basically as soon as he's awake we fit in a change/feed/washing up/hoover/random tiny piece of housework then it's rocking back to sleep as soon as the eyerubbing starts, sometimes only 20-30 minutes after wakening. But he's so easily stimulated he gets wired just watching me do housework or if I have the radio or TV on. I'm guaranteed screaming hysterics if we try bathing before bed, just too exciting. As for how I fit them in, no idea! He has one after DP gets up (watching him dress is SO exciting that I don't bother getting up with DS, I just feed him back to sleep when DP leaves for work!), one or two before lunch (ideally one nap of 90 minutes but this is if I have patience to do all the rocking that's required!), another one or two in the afternoon, but basically as soon as he wakes I'm preparing him for sleep again as he's constantly tired. I say this, in the last week or two things have eased and he's going longer before he gets narky, but I have had to be totally devoted to his sleep ALL day for weeks! He's a freakily wired baby though, don't sweat it, yours cannot be this mental!

Just had a thought - if you can spot a time at which she consistently wakes up, could you be ready to start rocking the pram at that point? You could walk her off to sleep then come home and just time it so the pram is moving as she comes into light sleep, thereby keeping her asleep longer?

This never worked for me but then DS won't sleep longer than 30 minutes in the pram and always wakes the instant we get indoors ... :sigh: ... it might be an option for you. But sling sling sling, never fails!

Hi chipperchick, has anyone mentioned colic? You could try colief which breaks down lactose enzymes, this worked a treat for my friend's baby who only cried in the evenings. A sign that it is colic is that they bring their knees up to their chest as if having tummy pain...HTH

Thanks ginger for your kind words. I'm not feeling wonderful tonight, after 10 mins of screaming I lost patience and had to hand her to DH, who thankfully was home early. I just don't understand why she is crying so much. When it's happening, I worry it's hunger, as she cries as soon as she comes off the breast. But next morning I think not, as she once howling has stopped and she's gone to sleep, she stays asleep quite well (dare I say).

DD is 11 weeks and is fully BF.

Thanks CSB for napping advice. I will try of soothing quickly when she starts to wake during day. We were at home today and she only had 30 mins am, 45 mins lunch, walk for 40 mins pm. Is mega cranky tonight. Will also try sling in upright position. DD also wakes from pram as soon as we come home!

Lizzer - thanks for suggestion, I don't think its colic, as its come on so recently, but I don't know. She can be very windy at times, but this past week i've been sure to burp her well, and have used gripe water which hasn't helped (it does when she is windy).

Chipperchick, don't worry my lovely we've all been there (believe me I have many times).

CSB has given you some excellent advice. Are you taking her off the breast or is she pulling away like she's had enough? If you're taking her off then try just leaving her to feed until she's asleep. If she's pulling away, try and wind her, try her again with the breast and if she resists just try and rock her to sleep. You could try a dummy too. We introduced one at this age and it was a godsend when she was colicy. (Of course you go through a stage where they're the bain of your life but you could get rid of it before that happens)

Thanks Ginger, I am taking her off the breast otherwise she falls asleep on it, and I have to wind her before putting her down. Also, when I have put her down asleep, she either wakes up as soon as her head hits to the cot, or otherwise 10-20 mins later. She seems to only stay asleep if she goes to sleep in the cot!!

Still can't figure out why she is crying as soon as comes off breast. She's started doing it a bit too at 10.30pm feed.

I was using dummies at this time of day (7pm ish). They worked well for first couple of weeks, then became a problem - she ended up needing them at every sleep, and would wake up when they dropped out of her mouth. She also stopped sucking on them so well. So have ditched the dummy!!

Thanks for all the suggestions and support - v helpful. Am being chicken today and going out, to avoid the napping at home nightmare! Esp as DH is away tonight, so want her as well rested as possible today. Lovely weather for it

Chipperchick, have just read your comments and can relate to them. My DD is 13 weeks old and has always been a very alert baby also. She would always only nap for 30-40 minutes at a time and I do have problems with her throughout the night. I have for the last 10 days started to introduce a loose GF routine. This stresses the importance of day time naps - 45 minutes in the morning and 2 hours at lunch time. My DD cannot get herself to sleep (my fault I realise now by introducing wrong sleep associations), therefore, if we are at home I put her to sleep in her bouncy chair but I do have to rock this back and fourth for her to get to sleep (not ideal I know) - she stills wakes after about 40 minutes or often earlier(this is when she comes into a light sleep and cannot resettle herself). In the afternoon I will rock her again until she goes back to sleep, which can sometimes take some time but she will always go back off. I know that she needs this sleep in the day which is why I perserve with ensuring she has plenty of day time sleep - these day time sleeps mean she is very content in the day and settles well at night. I also hope that with getting her back to sleep she will eventually learn to sleep for longer hersef - which seems to be working as she slept for an hour and a half yesterday on her own which she has never done before. She does have quite a few night time wakings but that is a different story and one I am trying to overcome - if it is not one thing it is another!!

Also, I do think your milk is low at that time of night - I have exactly the same thing! But because my DD is relaxed and ready for sleep it is not a problem - she always falls to sleep at the breast whilst feeding at this time of night.

What time do you feed her during the day and what time does she go to bed? She definately sounds over-tired but then again at least she is sleeping well at night at least that is something - maybe you could give me some tips about settling through the night....

Can I just add a few points following the last couple of posts?

chipper, if you want to there's nothing wrong with letting her fall asleep at the breast. There comes a time when sleep itself is the important thing, not the training bit. My DS cannot be moved once asleep either, so I feed him to sleep lying down on the bed then sneak away (or stay for a cheeky snooze/read a book/imagine what I would do around the house if I could be bothered ). I have always fed him to sleep and now at 19 weeks he will sometimes pull away from the breast, give me a smile then drift off just being cuddled, so he's still learning to do it by himself despite all this feeding to sleep he's been allowed to do!

And please don't worry about low milk supply if the weight gain is ok. DS still has nights when he needs to feed frequently, and at 11 weeks you're approaching prime growth spurt territory. Just let him feed when he likes and your magic boobs will take care of the rest.

Lisacat - I wouldn't blame yourself for your DD being unable to self settle. I think some babies come knowing how to sleep, some don't, and others forget when faced with the excitement of the world hitting their developing senses. I refuse to listen to any 'rod for your own back' comments because I don't know about you but I do things the way I do because if I didn't I'd have gone mad by now!

As per usual CSB is brilliant in her advice and I could not agree more.

FWIW, one of my biggest regrets of the early months is worrying too much about routine, sleep training and making a 'rod for my own back' The constant pressure to do things according to the book or following what other people tell me was right was the most stressful part of having a new baby. If I'd just followed DD's cues I'd have 'got it' much sooner.

I started motherhood thinking GF was the way for me. 15 months later, I co-sleep and still carry DD in a sling. I don't bf anymore but did on demand for 10 months. This is just the way my DD wanted to do things and nothing I would do could change that.

My advice to you is don't even bother with the books. They make you feel like crap when you can't even manage the first hurdle which in my case was waking up at the right time. Remember your baby hasn't read the book so doesn't know when he / she is supposed to eat and sleep. They will eat and sleep however if they're hungry and tired. When they're tired however it is important that you allow them to sleep so rock them gently, pat them, feed to sleep, what ever it takes, just keep external stimulation to a minimum. The most comfortable place your baby will be is close to you so it can hear your heart beat and smell you. Don't worry about 'sleep associations' if you give your baby the confidence that you're around when it needs you, the rest will come with time. It wasn't long ago that they fed and slept on demand inside your womb. They just need a gentle transition into the world, not a cold hard matress. If you want to lay her down you could try a sheepskin however as they're nice and warm underneath.

Ultimately though, just go with it. This is a really challenging time for a new parent but it will be over before you know it.

If you think you have milk supply issues then post on the bf'ing boards and ask for one of the councellors like ticktock but I would imagine everything is fine, if you feed on demand you'll have plenty. Don't listen to the likes of GF on bf'ing as she hasn't got any experience or knowledge about the subject. You'll find as your supply establishes then your breasts will soften and return to normal anyway but that doesn't mean your milk has gone.

Aw shucks!

It's all just so fresh in my mind ginger!