Any advice welcomed - I really need some sleep!

[laura032004]

DS2 is nearly 17m. He is IMO the worlds worst sleeper. He's never (well except once when out of it on morphine after an op), slept through the night. He is currently waking at least 4/5 times per night, and is often up for the day at 5am. He will only nap for about an hour and a half during the morning - he hasn't had two naps a day since he started to have regular sleeping times. He will v.occasionally have a second nap, or an afternoon nap if he hasn't had one in the morning, if I'm driving for an hour plus.

So far we've gotten through with a mixture of co-sleeping and CC. He co-slept entirely up until two or three months ago. Then we did CC to get him to have his first sleep of the night in his cot (he'd fall asleep at the breast, then wake on being put in the cot). Now he feeds to sleep, and can be put down in his cot quite easily.

He wakes at between 10 and 12 for the first time. I often feed him back to sleep at this time, and put him back into his cot. Sometimes I manage to do this for the second feed of the night too, but with the third, more often than not I end up asleep on the floor of his room with him, or he gets brought into our bed.

He sleeps with DS1, so CC in the night isn't really an option. DS1 sleeps through a lot of this, but it does disturb his sleep I think.

I'm really starting to despair of all this. He's currently going through a horrid phase anyway - eating hardly anything, crying lots and wanting to feed all the time. I'm exhausted, sore from all the feeding, and getting really down. I have PND, which was under control with AD's, but it's got so bad lately, that I feel like I'm slipping down again. DS1 was also a bad sleeper, so all in all, I haven't had a whole nights sleep in coming up 4 years (and that really is no exaggeration ). I can't remember the person I used to be.

bump

He sounds a lot like my DS - by 17m, he had rarely slept through the night and would usually wake 4-5 times and then get up early. It was exhausting. Then, one day, he just stopped waking up all the time - maybe once a night and I could deal with that.

I wish I had a suggestion, but I don't. I do empathise though. A lot.

{hug}

Fingers crossed OverRated

What time does he have his nap in the morning? afair - my ds at that age was having 1 nap a day - about 12.30ish? Then down in bed for 6.30ish?
Can you express and feed him from a bottle and if so - dream feed him at 10pm?
But it sounds as if he is teething or coming down with a cold if he's off sorts just now.

He starts his morning nap anytime from 9am to 12pm, depending on how bad his night was (so if he was up loads, and awake for the day at 5am, then he naps earlier).

He won't take a bottle.

I think he's got all of his teeth, and he doesn't have any signs of a cold, but I really feel like there must be something wrong with him. Either that or I have to admit that I have a horror child

Well, if you do have a horror child, you are not alone! Mine is wonderful - I wouldn't change him for the world. I am sure yours is too.

FWIW I think the PND makes things much harder to deal with - I had it too . Please try to talk to your gp - if you feel like you are still slipping. Best to get it sorted before it gets worse. {hug}

My 11m old is exactly like you describe and possibly worse as I am unable to even turn my back on him during the day and he has to be carried everywhere. Read Fussy Baby by Dr Sears, if you look on the Dr Sears website under high needs that might help (alot)

Thanks suwoo, will check that out. Another book to search for on Ebay! Do you have a sling? If DS2 was particularly needy at that age, I found putting him in an Ergo was great for giving me a bit of hands free time.

I do yes, a pouch one but have a mei tai on order. I work from home for a couple of hours, then out in the evenings and it is so hard to get stuff done with him, his new nickname is 'velcroboy' as he is attached to me all day LOL.

I know how you feel. DS2 is now walking, so I spend ages with him between my legs howling while I try to do things. Housework takes hours rather than minutes if he's 'helping'!

do you have someone you can share night with?

Would you consider getting in a night nanny to help?

do you have someone you can share night with?

Would you consider getting in a night nanny to help?

In the day - could you put him in a playpen to play with his toys for a while whilst you do a few jobs? He might cry to start with but as long as you know he's safe, he'll be fine to play by himself for a while and won't make housework seem even more of a chore.

My DS did exactly the same at night - regularly waking throughout the night until quite recently (he's almost 3 now).

I'd strongly recommend a few sessions of cranial osteopathy as it really helped my son to settle through the night. Although he did have trouble with his head after birth so found lying on his back uncomfortable. Not saying your DS has anything wrong with him, but lots of people rave about it for settling babies.

Does he go to sleep by himself in the day?

It really does sound that he's forgotten how to go to sleep himself. I don't know much about cc but perhaps you could have DS1 in with you whilst you rough it out?

Could you maybe try cutting back on feeding during the day? He'd soon learn that he'd have to eat a bit more if he wasn't going to get milk on demand...

Not sure if any of those help? Sleep deprivation truly has to be the worst things ever and I can only hope things start to get better for you.

I have DH with me at the weekends, but it's not really much help. DS2 won't settle at all for him, (although TBH, DH doesn't make much effort), so if DH gets up to him, I just listen to him crying, until I go to him anyway. It just delays the inevitable.

I don't know if night nannies exist in Devon?

Daytime - I've now got an aupair. Might seem extreme, but it's working fabulously. I work from home quite a lot, so I wasn't able to do that (I do most of it in the evenings once the DS's are in bed), and keep up with the housework.

Osteopathy - might be worth thinking about. Thanks for the suggestion. I've read a lot of good things about it. Will have to see if there is anybody doing it locally.

He feeds to sleep during the day, unless he falls asleep in the buggy or car (both very rare - DS1 falls asleep at the drop of a hat, DS2 fights and fights...).

I think the excessive daytime feeding resulting in reduced eating are certainly not helping matters, if not causing them entirely. I had a long talk with a friend about it tonight, and DS2 has a bit of a history with severe reflux - he didn't really eat solids until he was past a year old, so maybe we need some professional help to sort this out.

Part of me is very tempted to say, that's it, I'm not getting up to him during the night. In fact, the few times I've done that, he does go back to sleep eventually. But he was eating better then. Vicious circle? Hmmm. Might need to talk to my HV, and see if she can point me in the direction of some more help.

Have you found 'No Cry Sleep Solution' (Elizabeth Pantley)? If nothing else, it will make you realise how many other totally rubbish sleepers there are out there! She is very pro bf/co-sleeping, btu also appreciates that you get to a stage where you want to do it less - lots of practical tips.

Neither ds or dd slept through more than a few times before they were 18 mths - ds is going through quite a waking stage atm, he probably wakes 2/3x week (he's 3.5) and dd comes into bed with us maybe every other day.
So, not sure if you want to hear my tips

But, fwiw

1. I'd try and cut down on nighttime feeding - both ds & dd got much better when we decided to be a bit tougher with milk - dd settled immeadiately with a drink of (warm) water - to our absolute shock!!
2. Decide what is 'good enough' for you. For eg - I am absolutely happy with dd coming into bed with us sometimes still. Personally, I'd try and do things in 'steps' rather than expecting to get straight to sleeping through.
3. what happens if you co-sleep? does he still wake 4/5 times?
4. Have you tried any sort of gradual withdrawl techniques (never worked for me, but lots of people swear by 'em...

I'd be tempted to try & get his nap later too. Dd wakes early some days (5 certainly isn't unheard of because of pre-school runs etc, she rarely got to sleep at that age before 11/11.30, and I think that might help...

I've not read NCSS since having DS2 (read it when desperate with DS1!), so might have to get another copy. Think I gave mine away on here!

Tip no. 2 rings true. I'm not entirely happy with co-sleeping, but I don't mind that much. However, some people (like my DM), make me feel really bad about it, and make me feel like I should be sorting this out. However, I would like to sort it for me too, but I'm not sure I'm really up to it mentally yet. If we co-sleep, he still 'wakes' several times, but it's less disturbing - I feed him in my sleep almost. Some nights it disturbs me more than others, but it's OK.

Gradual withdrawal doesn't work at all with him. It's standing in cot screaming, or being fed and quiet. No middle ground. Worked for Ds1 though, so maybe there's hope for one day.

Yes, its a vicious circle isn't it?

Perhaps feeding him to sleep in the morning is making him less hungry at lunch time.
Could you perhaps get aupair to take him out in the morning so he sleeps in the buggy and thereby starts to lose the association of sleeping/feeding esp during the day.

This would make him hungry at lunch time and also refreshed enough to be able to eat. Are there any things he really likes to eat, could you start by having those lots to really encourage him?

If the reflux is a problem there may be certain foods that could be setting it off so definitely have a chat with HV or Doc.

I'd also second aiming for a later nap too...

Sounds to me like he's got the wrong sleep associations and the reason he's not hungry during the day is because he's getting most of what he needs during the night.
I'd actually just bite the bullet and set a time that you will feed him - so at 4 ish, say - and stick to it. Go in and shush pat him (but DO NOT pick him up - he won't understand that he's not getting a feed) regardless of how many times you're in and out but DON'T feed him before then. Then when you think he's got used to that drop all night feeds.
I think feeding and sleeping patterns go hand in hand - sort one out and the other will follow. Find a book you can stand and follow the routines it suggests. Feed him at regular times and put him down at midday in a darkened room etc. etc regularly for a couple of hours (and when he complains don't just give up, do the same as you would at night for the period of time you ultimately want him to sleep for). Stick with it and see where you are a month down the line. It can't be any worse than it is for you at the moment and your dh can at least give you a few hours in the day at the weekend to catch up on the sleep you will doubtless miss out on trying to sort this out.
I wouldn't worry about disturbing ds1 too much. He sleeps through it all at the moment and ultimately this is for his good too.
FWIW my 2 boys share and ds1 has learnt to sleep through ds2's disturbances. (If he's upset I find a drink of milk is enough to help him go off again.)
I've recently been doing exactly the same thing (ds2 - 11 months and also bfed- was waking every 2 hours and really not that interested in food during the day and daytime naps were deteriorating). He's had some terrible nights where I've felt dead on my legs the next day, but also some nights where he's slept straight through.

Things that worked for me in a similar situation (DS was slightly younger)

-I stopped feeding him to sleep before his daytime nap

• I started putting him down for a daytime nap after lunch instead of before (about 1pm usually)
• I started withdrawing b/f at night by having time limits (if he woke before midnight I would try not to feed etc) and patting & sssshing type settling instead (I would have cuddled but he didn;t want to be cuddled)

I did this until he stopped waking at all at night

It took about 2-3 months to go from feeding before all sleeps and waking 2-3 times a night at least, to him sleeping through from 7-7 and having 2 hour afternoon naps.

In the middle of this period he was ill and we started co-sleeping which I thought was going to take us back a few steps, but once he was better, it was fine.