4yo not settling to sleep till 9pm.

[frustratedwiththepandemic]

Hi. My 4yo wakes between 7-7:30. He dropped his nap just as he turned 2 and has been on omeprazole since v small. He is also on Azithromycin 3x a week and Ketotifen.

From about age 2.5/3 he used to settle by 8/8:10. A few months ago this jumped to 9. It did coincide with an increase in omeprazole and it seemed he had terrible insomnia/ restlessness type behaviour so we went back to the original dose. He is still not settling to sleep till 9/9:15.

We've tried coming up at 8:30, tried coming up at 7:30 and everything in betweeen. I feel that although he's not tired enough to go to bed earlier, he does need more sleep than he's getting. After a few weeks we notice his behaviour deteriorating and then he will go to bed at 8:30 for a couple days then back to 9/9:10.

It's driving us mad. We have no evening. I have health issues and I am ready to drop by 5/6pm as it is.

We would be happy with him entertaining himself / playing etc in his room until he was tired but at the moment it's just a battle.

Any suggestions? Thinking of getting an audible subscription or something to read stories to him.

Does omeprazole need to be increased by weight of the child? I’m not familiar with the other meds buts reflux tends to be outgrown by that age unless there is cause which hasn’t been addressed eg allergy.

Is your child tired the next day? What time do they get up? Do they get lots of physical activity? Kids are like puppies, they need 3 long walks a day.

If he's fine on bedtimes mostly 9.00-9.15pm and the occasional 8.30pm, then that's enough sleep for him. The 10h-10.5h sleep per night He is getting is absolutely fine at this age.

We have no evening

You need to reframe this.

Yes you do have "an evening". It's evening now. And you have early evening with your child, it's still an evening.

You child will grow up and have later bedtimes. You have to just change an adapt.

My 6yo went to bed half an hour ago. So now might be my evening. It is, but DS11 will be up until 10pm. Then DD16 goes to bed around 10.30pm, when I go up. Then DS15 goes to bed when his Dad does, usually around 11pm. The concept of a child free evening is FTM precious.

@Fitforforty

Does omeprazole need to be increased by weight of the child? I’m not familiar with the other meds buts reflux tends to be outgrown by that age unless there is cause which hasn’t been addressed eg allergy.

Is your child tired the next day? What time do they get up? Do they get lots of physical activity? Kids are like puppies, they need 3 long walks a day.

Hi thanks for your concern re reflux. I don't really want to get into it here but we've had lots of specialist input and it's not a standalone issue.

He's at nursery 3x a week and is an active child. Today we had a home day after ages but regardless of activity we find that it doesn't impact bedtime. He wakes between 7/7:30 and recently we've had to make noise to wake him so that tells me he does need more sleep.

@FATEdestiny

If he's fine on bedtimes mostly 9.00-9.15pm and the occasional 8.30pm, then that's enough sleep for him. The 10h-10.5h sleep per night He is getting is absolutely fine at this age.

We have no evening

You need to reframe this.

Yes you do have "an evening". It's evening now. And you have early evening with your child, it's still an evening.

You child will grow up and have later bedtimes. You have to just change an adapt.

My 6yo went to bed half an hour ago. So now might be my evening. It is, but DS11 will be up until 10pm. Then DD16 goes to bed around 10.30pm, when I go up. Then DS15 goes to bed when his Dad does, usually around 11pm. The concept of a child free evening is FTM precious.

Thanks for the reassurance re getting enough sleep. I've seen numerous posts from yourself in the past and appreciate your wisdom.

Problem is I do need some downtime though without kids and I can't fit that in when he's going to bed so late as my own health isn't great. I either suffer physically (if I go to bed later) or mentally (not getting the downtime).

My husband is here to help and he will entertain ds but he is very busy with work and so is pretty knackered by the time he gets in.

I have a 2yo who goes to sleep at 7pm and I find my 4yo gets more needy / wants to play all these energetic games. We are just struggling.

@FATEdestiny

Any suggestions for activities to do between 7-9pm? What time would you suggest taking him to bed so we aren't having all the back and forth / dragging it out? 8:30 feels too early as he's already changed/ ready beforehand.

I maintain that you will need to reframe your idea that downtime needs to be child free. I appreciate that's difficult to get your head around when you have two preschoolers. But in the blink of an eye you'll be on the merrygoround of football / swimming / cubs / drama club or whatever through your evenings.

Just like now you might think to yourself - what did I do with all the time I had at weekends before I had children?! In a few years time you may well think similar about your evenings when the children were little.

Pre-bedtime downtime for the children in our house usually means screen time. My youngest has her kindle - full of safe video steams or Netflix. Or she minecrafts or plays other kids aps.

DH usually takes them all (We have 4 children) to the park to kick a football around (often while one is at swimming or football club) at 6pm ish. I stay home while they go out. Youngest chooses to go 50% of the time.

So some nights she's out at the park until 7-7.30pm. Then kindle while lying on her bed until 8.30pm ish. Then bathroom, pyjamas, story read, bed

Some nights she chooses not to go to the park and stays with me. But we have quiet time right from 6pm. She might have a long bath (watches Netflix in there). We might snuggle together on my bed or the sofa and watch something together. Or she just does her own thing on her own, if I'm doing jobs.

Evenings are never for me to "entertain". We have busy early evenings. After dinner and outside play with Dad, the only attention the children get from me is if we lie down and snuggle together during our joint downtime.

@FATEdestiny
Yeah I think that's where our problem is. He wants to play with us when the younger one goes to bed. Probably because the younger one has been so demanding (medical needs).

How much exercise is he getting?

My DD needs a lot of exercise and/or mental stimulation to tire her out. On non-nursery days we generally walk between 3 and 5 miles.

If there's a day where she doesn't get a long walk or a good run around or playground trip then she finds it harder to get to sleep.

On evenings where I sense that DD isn't quite ready to go to sleep, once she is all ready for bed I sit with her at a little table in her room and do jigsaws with her or draw with her. Both of these activities are calming for her and she seems to benefit from my undivided attention. She doesn't watch TV at all after dinner.

I also make sure there's no chance she can be hungry at bedtime. If I'm unsure whether her dinner had enough carbs/protein I try to use her pudding to make up for that. She's a skinny little thing despite eating quite a lot so she just seems to need good food to function.

@INeedNewShoes

How much exercise is he getting?

My DD needs a lot of exercise and/or mental stimulation to tire her out. On non-nursery days we generally walk between 3 and 5 miles.

If there's a day where she doesn't get a long walk or a good run around or playground trip then she finds it harder to get to sleep.

On evenings where I sense that DD isn't quite ready to go to sleep, once she is all ready for bed I sit with her at a little table in her room and do jigsaws with her or draw with her. Both of these activities are calming for her and she seems to benefit from my undivided attention. She doesn't watch TV at all after dinner.

I also make sure there's no chance she can be hungry at bedtime. If I'm unsure whether her dinner had enough carbs/protein I try to use her pudding to make up for that. She's a skinny little thing despite eating quite a lot so she just seems to need good food to function.

Thanks. Probably not enough on non nursery weekdays (so 2 days out of the week). Will try to work on it.

I have no advice, OP, but offering solidarity. My DS is 2 but his sleep pattern is much the same. He settles for around 9-9.30pm and wakes at 7-7.30am. If we put him down for 7.30pm, he's up at 5-5.30am. We decided we'd much rather spend extra time with him in the evening than at 5am in the morning.

Hunger could be an issue to be fair (long story) but he does have a small snack just before bed and he's at the upper end of weight category. Thanks for bringing that to my attention @TokenGinger

@frustratedwiththepandemic

Hunger could be an issue to be fair (long story) but he does have a small snack just before bed and he's at the upper end of weight category. Thanks for bringing that to my attention *@TokenGinger*

Sorry I should've tagged @INeedNewShoes !

@TokenGinger

I have no advice, OP, but offering solidarity. My DS is 2 but his sleep pattern is much the same. He settles for around 9-9.30pm and wakes at 7-7.30am. If we put him down for 7.30pm, he's up at 5-5.30am. We decided we'd much rather spend extra time with him in the evening than at 5am in the morning.

Bless. I agree would hate such early starts

@frustratedwiththepandemic

Hunger could be an issue to be fair (long story) but he does have a small snack just before bed and he's at the upper end of weight category. Thanks for bringing that to my attention *@TokenGinger*

Carbs are quite naturally sleep-inducing I think. DD has 'dinner' at nursery but it's not quite enough so I give her a substantial snack of yoghurt, puffed oat cereal (literally just oats - no sugar) and sliced banana at 7pm which is just before her bedtime.

Oats and cherries are both natural sources of melatonin which is a sleep hormone so could be worth a try.

Another thing to say though is that different kids seem to need very different amounts of sleep. DD averages 11 hours overnight but will never ever nap during the day, even on a long car journey. She has friends at the age 4 whose sleep range from around 7 hours per night up to around 13; some still have a few daytime naps a week, and some don't. There just seems to be a huge variety.

This thread has been useful for me as I can see that I may need to mentally prepare for having DD's company in the evening rather sooner than I thought might be the case!

@INeedNewShoes thanks yes google tells
Me it's within the sleep range, I'll
Be mentioning it at his next paediatric appt as well. It just feeels like it's not enough but that's my own mindset I think!

Have a look at Tonie boxes, my DS is 4 and it's been a great bedtime tool x

@TrevorWithTheWeather

Have a look at Tonie boxes, my DS is 4 and it's been a great bedtime tool x

Thank you! Do you buy the stories separately?

Mine are late sleepers too. Often between 9-10pm (they are 4 and 9)
From 730 onwards is time to relax - almost always this means tv - a sometimes quiet play from the younger or a book for older. But no high energy, high parental input stuff. We are tired too! And that hour or 2 to relax /do some jobs before kids’ bedtime is really necessary to get us through.
I do envy those whose children are in bed by 7/8ish. But at least we have a routine now that will work even when they are older

You have kids, you don’t get to have a child-free evening. Some people are lucky and they do because their kids need more sleep. But you don’t, and many of us don’t, and it’s just tough. In a few years you’ll have to do homework with them and take them out to activities all evening and they won’t go to sleep till even later. That’s just what parenting is like. Unless you have family to pick up the slack you don’t get a night off.

@Toolateplanting

Mine are late sleepers too. Often between 9-10pm (they are 4 and 9) From 730 onwards is time to relax - almost always this means tv - a sometimes quiet play from the younger or a book for older. But no high energy, high parental input stuff. We are tired too! And that hour or 2 to relax /do some jobs before kids’ bedtime is really necessary to get us through. I do envy those whose children are in bed by 7/8ish. But at least we have a routine now that will work even when they are older

Do I just tell my 4yo it's quiet time? Hopefully once he sees we aren't forcing him to bed early he will enjoy it and relax too rather than trying to get us to play high speed car chases etc. I will have to get over the guilt of having this quiet time which sounds ridiculous I know

@Tuberoses

You have kids, you don’t get to have a child-free evening. Some people are lucky and they do because their kids need more sleep. But you don’t, and many of us don’t, and it’s just tough. In a few years you’ll have to do homework with them and take them out to activities all evening and they won’t go to sleep till even later. That’s just what parenting is like. Unless you have family to pick up the slack you don’t get a night off.

Thanks your post comes across a bit harsh. I have health issues and my kids have health issues so it's actually a very tough day. All my friends with 4yo (9 between us) are in bed for 8pm at the latest so I didn't realise it was fairly common.

I will accept this and find a routine now.

Also maybe I'm delusional in that this will get better as they grow but I think it's the constant 'mum mum' and the questions which never end.

I have a 2yo and 5yo. Mine sleep roughly 8/8.30 til 6/6.30 but we are lucky, as they now play together for a bit in the morning so we get a longer break.

My 5yo likes a massage before bed. We lie on her bed and I stroke her back and chat about her day. Your DS might not enjoy it but it might help him relax. Also DD has quiet time in her room at weekends whilst DS naps. This is usually an hour after lunch. She sometimes resists it but does tend to like it once she gets going. She has a desk and craft bits set up which she often uses, plus Lego etc.

You mention your DS wants your attention due to competing demands in the day. Can you aim to find something calm you or your DP can do with him for half an hour e.g. watch a film, drawing. Then leave him for half an hour by himself.

That's my 4 year olds normal bedtime although it can be 9:30pm before she falls asleep. We let her have a long bath and then read her stories until she falls asleep as a bedtime routine. If she goes to sleep any earlier she's wide awake at 5am like a pp said and I can't cope with that. It is just a change as children grow up that you adapt to over time. Can you find an evening routine with them that helps you relax too? I have a bath earlier while DD is playing, I get into my pyjamas and I have a collection of children's books I enjoy reading to her so I do find it's part of my mental wind-down routine too now. I've found it does get better over time, after the bump of about 3-6years, gradually they do start to do their own things in the evenings so it's less mental effort for you, my DD9 doesn't fall asleep until about 10:30pm but after playing a board game with us she'll read in bed for about an hour so we can watch TV on our own.

Is it maybe the light evenings. My just turned 4yr old has went from bed time around 8-8.30 to now bed is more like 9.30-9.45 sometimes even nearly 10pm. She gets up around 8am but sometimes it can be 7-7.30 as it's so light and starting to get warm. Doesn't nap and is very active.

We have blackout blinds and curtains but still bit of light seeps through and she knows it's light outside. I know she'll settle bk down once it starts getting darker outside 🤞🏻