We need new ideas to help nearly 8mo DD sleep

[Needsleeeeepsendheeeelp]

Sorry, this is long...

My nearly 8mo DD has never been a good sleeper. Things are better now than they were (she was waking every 40-60 minutes for the first 4 months) but her sleep is erratic and unpredictable, and we're just at a bit of a loss of what to do.

She is formula fed, on prescription milk for cmpa, and eats 3 good meals a day. She tends to have one bottle overnight (sometimes two), this can be any time from 10pm-2am. We've tried to not feed her at the earlier time, but sometimes once she starts crying she just won't settle, so we have to do it early.

I am not expecting her to be sleeping through yet (although of course it would be nice!), and if it was just one or two feeds I was up for, I'd cope fine. But she regularly wakes and needs settling at other times on top, and frequently wakes at 4/5am and can cry for well over an hour before going back off.

This is the routine we aim for: up at 6am, nap 8.30/9 until 10am, nap 12.30-2.30, then we do dinner at 4.45/5pm, bath at 6 and final bottle before bed at 6.30pm. All times are ish.

The issues/questions we have are, as above, she is regularly waking at 4/5am and being impossibly difficult to resettle, and we don't know how to prevent this?

I've agonised over her nap times etc, but I can't see much I can change in that, particularly because I have to work around the school run.

When we put her down for her nap, she screams the house down. We don't feed to sleep, she gets put into the cot and into her sleeping bag, and she just goes ballistic. She will go off to sleep in about 5 minutes, but it's bloody torturous. We'd love for this not to happen but I don't know how?

And the wakings that aren't for a feeding. Why? How do we stop these?

We took her to a cranial osteopath when she was little, which to be honest didn't make loads of difference. We also paid a sleep specialist for advice, a plan and ongoing support, and she did help to improve things, but not as much as we'd hoped. Possibly because DD was only 4mo when we hired her, so was too young really to sleep train?

She does fall asleep independently (after all the screaming), sometimes she falls asleep on her bedtime bottle, sometimes not, doesn't seem to make a difference. We try not to lift her out of the cot when she wakes, we ssh and pat etc. We don't rush in when she cries out, so she does have the opportunity to get herself back off.

She doesn't have a dummy - we're considering offering her one to see if this helps, but if feels like a regressive step to do this?!

Her room is really dark (two blackout blinds and blackout curtains 😂) and we have white noise on and a lullaby bear. She has a teddy comforter, and we use the same putting down method every day, so the environment is consistent.

I'm also aware she's close to the 8m sleep regression, so if she's in that early it may be behind the worsening of things of late. She's nearly crawling, so developmentally this could be impacting too.

I know there's no magic fix, but honestly any suggestions to help would be amazing. Would you offer a dummy at this stage?! Any specific sleep training methods that we could try? Would you make changes to the nap times? Please. Thank you.

Thank you @Temple29 we have to drive so with the constantly being in and out of the car seat, it is too disruptive for her to sleep. I've tried parking in the main village and walking up to school and back, which is a 15 minute walk each way, but she doesn't sleep 🤦‍♀️

@NavigatingAdolescence whenever she falls asleep in the car, she wakes up as soon the car stops. For her afternoon nap she is in bed and won't stay asleep to transfer to the car seat. Its annoying but it just doesn't work for her.

Hmmmm.

Could someone else do one of the school runs.

Thank you @Orangeinmybluelightcup i wish we hadn't used a consultant so early on, but at that stage I was getting about 2 hours a night and was broken.

Yes we have tried to work the nap times according with wake windows, but we obviously haven't found a balance that works yet.

@NavigatingAdolescence not on a consistent basis, no. All our family work (mostly office hours), DH is full time plus has his own business on top. I do try and use after school clubs where I can, but they're limited at the moment.

To be honest with the power of hindsight they really do change quickly so chances are that if you continue to do your best, reduce your input overnight where you can, in a month or 2 you'll end up in a different place anyway. That said, I did controlled crying at 10m and i regret not doing it that bit earlier really as all I did was delay the seemingly inevitable.

[quote Needsleeeeepsendheeeelp]@FATEdestiny she did for a bit, we stopped giving it at about 4m as the sleep specialist suggested it was detrimental for her. She didn't miss it at all. We're at the clutching at straws stage now though![/quote]
I despair at some sleep consultants. If you'd have kept using the dumny consistently you'd be out the other side by now, with a baby who can use the dummy independently to self sooth.

Would you offer a dummy at this stage?

If baby had never had one I'd say no - at 8 months baby wouldn't have a clue how to use a dummy to get comfort.

But given that it has been established previously, I would try. There is a high chance that baby just won't for the comfort attachment and so you just quietly remove and forget it after a month.

But maybe baby will go straight back to the comfort sucking memory and take to it. Then all you need to do is work on motor skills to find/replace own dummy.

Basically you're not going to do any harm to try yo reintroduce a dummy. It'll either help, or do nothing. So little to losè by trying.

In general, she is up 2-2.5 hours before her first nap, and she still fights going to sleep when we go to put her down, so we are starting to think that she needs to go down later

I think earlier and longer.

The fighting going to sleep will be 90% down to the fact she has no adequate soothing mechanism (since she's crying herself to sleep). I would not read the fact that she fights going to sleep as a sign less sleep is needed. It's just a sign she's tired and can't get to sleep.

Are you waking her at 10am? If not, leave her until 11am. Also put her down for this morning nap the instant you get back from the school run - literally as soon as you walk in the door, straight from car to cot.

Get this morning nap longer and also try to keep the afternoon nap longer. This build up of sleep should then let you push bedtime later.

For example
6am wake, 9-11am nap, 1-3pm nap, 8pm bed. Add in a teatime bouncy chair or pram power nap if at all possible.

For my children, the only way I managed to get a later wake time was decreasing daytime naps - you have a few tough days but without fail it pushed back morning wake every time.

In terms of crying at night, I’d offer milk straight away each time and see if that works, and then try to offer more milk or water during the day so they gradually need less at night.

Both of these worked for me but every child is different. Maybe worth a try though if other suggestions don’t work

I would say she needs a feed t 10-1030ish then only 1 feed over night. It's unpopular but I would rouse them by checking nappy etc but not enough to fully wake them feed, cuddle and back to sleep before a night feed.

Has she got a night light? I know the experts say they need a really dark room but both of my children were calmer when they could see with the aid of a soft night light in the room.

Also my children were rarely awake past 6:30. I don't see the problem with that as a bedtime.

I did give mine dummies. I know people judge them but I found they do soothe them in the night, especially when teething. You just have to be strict and keep them in the bed and for sleep time. And to be honest when you have children that don't sleep well, anything is worth a try in my opinion!

It’s just so limiting! We do a lot at night (owls) so not being able to eat out or visit friends of an evening would have been really hard to deal with. Also didn’t want to be up before 9/10am if I could help it. So a very late bedtime worked alway better for us.

Thanks @FATEdestiny I think we're going to try a dummy. Fingers crossed.

Yes, we are waking her if she isn't up by 10.30, simply because of the timing of the afternoon nap clashing with school run. If we let her sleep any later, she doesn't have a good afternoon nap and then always refuses to have a third.

Yes, very limiting unfortunately @NavigatingAdolescence 😐

Well as it happens, last night wasn't too bad. She slept 6.30-midnight, had a bottle, she did struggle to go settle after (which is unusual) but then slept until 5am, and then I was able to get her back off quickly until 6.15! Yesterday we went to London and her naps were very disrupted, so she ended up having 3 short ones, 9.40-10.20, 1.10-1.40 and then 3.15-3.40. So maybe we need to cap her naps so she's tired enough for a third, rather than let her have the two longer ones?! 🤷‍♀️

Hey, sorry to hear you're struggling.

I'd try the dummy. I didn't want to use one with DS2 (DS1 never wanted/needed one) but each baby have their own needs. DS2 definitely needed his and it helped a great deal.

Other thing that helped is putting toys in the bed so she can play before drifting off. There are playboards you can attach to the sides of the bed for instance. DS1 have upgraded to kiddy books (he's 2.5) and I usually give DS1 something to keep in bed now that he's 1 (baby plastic book with lights and sounds). I also put on music (the same every evening, classical music lullabies).

Check she isn't teething ?

Re naps, my DS2 has one a day and has had for months (he's 13mo). So I don't know if 3 naps a day sound like a very good idea. Did you try cutting the morning nap and making the afternoon nap longer ?

Forgot to add, try different dummies. I gave DS2 an old one (old but new iyswim) that DS1 never used. He loved the longer ones for older babies and never wanted the age appropriate ones so...

Also I don't know if 3 shorter naps (as per your last update) really are a good idea. That's just more fractured sleep rather than long stretches. Plus she's reaching an age when she'll be dropping the third one anyway - neither of mine ever had 3 naps tbh. One mid morning and one mid afternoon at the most.

Thank you @Marty13 we're going to pick some dummies up tomorrow and see how she takes to it. Everything crossed!

She could be teething, she's drooling and has occasional red cheeks but we can't see anything in her gums yet.

Yes tbh my instinct is that 3 short naps wouldn't work for her. I don't feel that her daytime sleep is at the right balance for her in terms of the length and times, and the constraints we have to adjust those are frustrating.

Still, I'm finding it very promising that she is able to have better nights like last night. We just need her to do it more regularly, but I have more hope today that it is possible.

At that age my daughter had 2 naps. In the morning about 45 mins to an hour after Mille, breakfast and getting ready around 9:30am, Lunch would be around 12:30.
Then afternoon nap around half 2/3pm. Awake around 4pm, tea at 5/5:30, bath around 6/6:30, milk, stories, teeth brushed and bed for 7:30. Woke up through the night if she needed comfort etc but mostly slept through.
Waking around 6/6:30.
When she got to around 1 year she transitioned to 1 nap which meant her morning nap became later until she napped after lunch.

*milk not Mille