Just cannot get bedtimes sorted and it's driving me nuts

[Fifimoomon]

2.5 DS never self-settled (and was generally an iffy sleeper) until I hired a sleep consultant when he was one, and after a surprisingly easy bit of controlled crying, with very little actual crying, he nailed it and for six months went down like a dream for naps and bedtime (didn't sort his night waking mind!)

But one night around a year ago he started crying at bedtime again and I just have not been able to sort it ever since. Initially I would go to him, stroke him and cuddle to sleep. But at points it's got ridiculous, taken hours and I've ended up actually squashed into the bloody cot with him to get him to sleep. I have done numerous bouts of gradual retreat, and I always manage to get out the door but he still cries and I have to stand in the doorway intermittently shhing and singing. Never got past that point.

I have tried just leaving him a few times but I'm not comfortable with it and doesn't seem to make any long term difference anyway.

Tried controlled crying a few months ago but after two weeks no improvement.

Last few nights been particularly bad with him starting to cry before I've even got him in the cot and have just spent 45 minutes outside his door with him crying on and off and me shhing and singing every few minutes (although I don't go in).

I'm fed up and sad that DS is upset most nights. I could go back to just sitting in with him till he falls asleep but I'm worried that this will be disastrous for the imminent move to the toddler bed when he can just get out and come and poke me...

How do I teach him to go to bed without the upset?

Yes he does still nap though sometimes can be a bit hit and miss. I limited it to 1 hour (12 to 1pm) about two months ago which seemed to help a bit...but perhaps not so much now! I've asked nursery to give me his naptimes for the last week to see if I can see any correlation. I have been thinking about dropping the nap but am very unsure if that is a good idea or not.

Me and his dad have tried just leaving him on a number of occasions when he's more protesting crying rather than proper crying. He has given up after not too long, but then same thing would just keep happening the next night and the next so it was no magic fix and I don't want to leave him crying every night.

He'll often be quiet for ages, then start crying, quiet for two minutes, another minute of crying, quiet again for a bit, start again....and I don't know how to deal with that as going in to comfort then results in major upset if I try to leave, but I feel shit leaving him to cry even when on and off like that.

I'm so confused. How do I address 'His fear (and the reason for crying) is that as soon as he relaxes, you will leave him and he doesn't feel secure enough to be left. So he stays awake until it's impossible for him to continue.' with being firm and stopping him pissing about for three hours?

There is no either/or in this. You can (and should) do both. Help him feel secure AND ALSO take no messing around. Indeed it is well documented that by being very firm with hard boundaries, that children feel secure just by having those boundaries.

Honestly I wouldn’t tolerate this from a 2.5 yr old, maybe I’m a monster but it would be a firm no to the climbing out and winging. I certainly wouldn’t have the screaming, that would a very firm telling off

This. exactly as PP said. Lets work this through...

So, your expectations should be:
(a) lie down in bed
(b) be still
(c) be quiet
Why? Because it will not be possible to go to sleep until he does all three. What you're not doing is insisting he sleeps. But you will/can insist that he lies down, is still and quiet. The idea is he then gets bored with no option to do anything else, relaxes and so sleeps.

How to do that? It's an unwelcome behaviour. You:
(1) Set clear, simple expectations
(2) No negotiation
(3) Respond quickly and firmly
(4) Be consistent

Develop your expectations into a mantra. For example "it's sleep time now. We lie down quietly to sleep. Nan night".

So, when putting into the cot, give him autonomy. Place him in standing up, tap mattress and tell him to lie down. Get him to go from standing to sitting to lying down independently without any help. Praise when he follows instructions. Play instruction following games in the daytime if you think might be an issue.

Once lying down - smiley face, compassionate tone, bend close to him and give him a "good boy" or whatever as praise. Hand on chest, repeat mantra.

Any movement toward getting up - Firm "No!". Immediately change your facial expression to stern. "No. It's sleep time now. We lie down quietly to sleep. Nan night". Tap mattress, tell him to lie down again, praise and change to positive/compassionate tone when instructions followed. Rinse and repeat. Over and over again - he needs to understand that the ONLY thing you will tolerate is him lying down.

If it's a big battle, make your expectations even simpler - forget being quiet (for now) but absolutely don't tolerate anything other than lying down. You have to be firm, repetitive and keep on going. You have to set those very firm boundaries so he understands that no other option is available at all, for the sake of his own wellbeing and because you are the parent and so sometimes he has no option but to do as he is told.

The messing around you are facing is a behaviour issue, not a sleep issue. You need to treat it as such.

Thank you FATE, I'm going to follow that to the letter tonight if we get a replay of last night. I'll steel myself for the hysterics and tag team with his dad.

Will report back!

What's he like for instruction following generally?

Maybe play some games and do some instruction following activities today? Big praise and cheering when he follows the instruction. Toddlers generally really like making their parents happy. Things like:

• Put this in the bin
• give this to Daddy
• Climb up here (tap, to show where)
• Now come here (move to another chair, tap to show where he should climb to)
• Take this into the kitchen
• Put this in the wash basket
• Where is the ball?
• Bring me the teddy
• Daddy wants the remote control, can you take it?
• Where is your nose/foot/arm/eyes/ears etc (pointing at body parts)

Give him as much autotomy as possible. If he physically can do it himself, don't do it for him. Getting on and off the sofa, climbing onto dinner chair, climbing up stairs and with support crawling backwards down stairs - these are all things when you could be standing back and letting toddler have the autonomy.

These will all help with the important instruction you are expecting him to follow later - to be able to go from standing to lying down in the cot completely without help, when you ask him to.

Great advice from Fate. It's really good you've got his dad on board but definitely make sure you are both on the same hymn sheet. It won't work if he isn't as consistent or has different ideas to you so both agree on your strategy and really consistency is key.

Once you decide on your mantra (it's time to sleep, goodnight etc) that is the only interaction. I know we're all different but if he tries to get up or get out of the cot I would immediately place him back in the cot with no verbal interaction and after saying 'it's time to sleep' once or twice I would no longer be verbalising at all. You should fully expect him to pull out all the big guns though. He will say he feels sick, he loves you, he wants Daddy, he wants mummy, he needs a drink etc. This is behavioural as FATE says and you absolutely have to be clear with your expectations. Also, at his age and in this heat, does he still need a gro bag? I'm not saying he doesn't but maybe with a sheet or cover he will be cooler and it will be one less thing to play with. Each time he gets up, lay him back down with no words and cover him up.

Two or three nights like this and I bet you will have it cracked. Glad you got XP coming to support you both. I also think a bedtime routine is absolutely key. Does he have a drink, story or bath before bed? Mine always responded really well to a book. Gets them calm and happy before sleep time and is almost like a sleep trigger of you do it consistently. So for me it would be

Dinner
Play / last minute run around to burn off energy
Bath
Pjs and story time
Snuggle down and light off (for us we always had to have the landing light on)
Lay him down, cover up, kiss, cuddle 'time to sleep
He gets up/tries to engage
'It's time to sleep, goodnight' and lay him back down
He tries again
'Sleep now' lay him down
He tries again
No words, lay him down and cover him up
Repeat a hundred times until he gets the picture whilst he knows you are still there

First night you stay in the room, sat on the floor
Second night move to sit with your back to him
Third night closer to the door
Keep this up until you're out with just a simple kiss and goodnight
He tries again

Thanks! We have a nailed on bedtime routine (similar to your one), have had it since he was a dot, he knows exactly what to expect. Have tried adding a book in at the end right before bed a coupe of times but its not been good, soon as I finish the book he starts with 'again again again' and then howling when I say no, bedtime now (which I did every night for the three nights I tried it a couple of months ago, but he just got worse each night so I stopped).

Grobag is more to keep him in the cot, he can climb out without it but not with it on (until last night!) It's only a 0.5 tog, very thin and just a vest underneath so don't think he's too hot.

He's really good at following instructions...when he wants to! But yes he totally knows how to lay down when I say lay down, put this in the bin and so on. He understands me, he just defies me!

Can you all tell I have absolutely no bloody idea what I'm doing with this parenting thing?!

I thought I was doomed last night as DS was in a stinking mood and had a 20 minute rolling on the floor head banging tantrum just before bedtime. But actually it wasn't as bad as Tuesday night.

We did bedtime routine and I put him in the cot, he started kicking off before his feet had even touched the mattress, but I kept it to very firm 'NO DS, it's time to lay down'. Was physically impossible to actually get him laying down properly, he was grabbing the sides of the cot and arching his back, but I kept trying anyway though I think it was becoming a game to him. Lots of mucking about and crying and shouting NO! when I told him to lay down and be quiet, but not as hysterical as Tuesday.

He got out of his sleeping bag once and tried to climb out, but I put it back on him and he didn't bother again. But started throwing his teddy out of the cot instead, at which point I said that was enough, mummy was only going to sit with him if he lay down, and I went and stood outside the door. He still bloody refused! After five minutes I went back in with a firm LAY DOWN NOW, lay him down and sat next to him with hand on him....and after a bit more mucking about (but stayed laying down) he went to sleep. About an hour all in all.

So, progress on the three hours it took on Tuesday. But still a lot longer than the doorway sushhing.

But definite progress so that's awesome! It sounds like you need to leave the teddies on the floor if he continues throwing them. Well done for challenging the behaviour and giving him a consequence. I do really think this one is going to take consistency but you're doing great. An hour is definitely better than three!!

As for parenting, we are none of us experts. We are all just winging it and doing the best we can. It does get easier in a lot of ways, or at least they don't give for your attention in the same way and I have found that instilling good behaviour and boundaries when they are little has saved me a boatload of worries now mine are teenagers. They are good kids that are respectful and polite (most of the time!) so rest assured the hard work you do now will set you up well for the future.

Hi all - sorry to jump in but I’m in a similar situation and wondering if the suggested method by @FATEdestiny can be adapted for my 11 month old? Current situation:

BF to sleep - if attempt to put down when tired but not asleep she cries and stands up to be picked up. Will fall asleep if cuddled by me or dad/grandparent.

She often wakes as we put her down and screams/stands up to be picked up.

Naps are not predictable. If she wakes at 7am she refuses a morning nap altogether (usually try between 9-9.30 without success). If she wakes at 6 she will have a morning nap of 45 mins to an hour from about 9am in her cot - fed to sleep or cuddled to sleep.

Lunchtime nap around 12.30/1pm - lucky to get an hour out of her.

Bed 7/7.30pm.

White noise in room. Room is dark but not blacked out as both blackout blind and blackout curtains annoying still let light in. I boarded up the windows for 3 months so it was pitch black and this didn’t really make a difference.

About a month ago we were in a good place where she had naturally started sleeping 7.30-5am with only one wake up or non at all but since a few weeks ago she is back to waking 3/4 times each night and only way to get her to sleep quickly is to BF. If I let her co sleep she does longer stints of 4-5 hours but j don’t want to go back to co sleeping.

Tried controlled crying - she would eventually pass out after 45 mins ans then slept for quite a while but after 4 nights was still taking 45 mins (with us going in every so often following Ferber timings) and she was freaking out whenever we went near the stairs during the dah thinking we were going to leave her. So I stopped it as felt it was doing more harm than good.

She has no dummy. Never had one, husband is dentist so no way one will be introduced now she is almost 1 years old.

Any advice much appreciated!

At 2.5, I would be moving DS to a bed. He is old enough to understand some basic rules about bedtime.

At a minimum, you won't have to squash into the cot.

It seems like a lot of stress for both of you. I have 4 children, the youngest is 2. They all went through phases of sleeping well and not so well and then they settle down as they get older. I used to stress with bedtimes with my first - but my youngest just goes up to bed whenever she is tired. She will often ask to go up once it gets late. If i need some peace from her in the evenings I put on a cartoon and she lies on the couch and might drift off there and then i carry her up to bed. I have never tried to make her go to bed at a set time and it is less stress all around. It might not suit everyone but it works for us.

@AnonyHB

Hi all - sorry to jump in but I’m in a similar situation and wondering if the suggested method by *@FATEdestiny* can be adapted for my 11 month old? Current situation:

BF to sleep - if attempt to put down when tired but not asleep she cries and stands up to be picked up. Will fall asleep if cuddled by me or dad/grandparent.

She often wakes as we put her down and screams/stands up to be picked up.

Naps are not predictable. If she wakes at 7am she refuses a morning nap altogether (usually try between 9-9.30 without success). If she wakes at 6 she will have a morning nap of 45 mins to an hour from about 9am in her cot - fed to sleep or cuddled to sleep.

Lunchtime nap around 12.30/1pm - lucky to get an hour out of her.

Bed 7/7.30pm.

White noise in room. Room is dark but not blacked out as both blackout blind and blackout curtains annoying still let light in. I boarded up the windows for 3 months so it was pitch black and this didn’t really make a difference.

About a month ago we were in a good place where she had naturally started sleeping 7.30-5am with only one wake up or non at all but since a few weeks ago she is back to waking 3/4 times each night and only way to get her to sleep quickly is to BF. If I let her co sleep she does longer stints of 4-5 hours but j don’t want to go back to co sleeping.

Tried controlled crying - she would eventually pass out after 45 mins ans then slept for quite a while but after 4 nights was still taking 45 mins (with us going in every so often following Ferber timings) and she was freaking out whenever we went near the stairs during the dah thinking we were going to leave her. So I stopped it as felt it was doing more harm than good.

She has no dummy. Never had one, husband is dentist so no way one will be introduced now she is almost 1 years old.

Any advice much appreciated!

(hello again - I just replied to another thread with you on)

Given that your start point is BF to sleep, actually you're is sleep training that is needed. The behaviour issue of standing (that the OP is dealing with) is secondary for you, given that the primary reason your baby cannot sleep independently is because her established form of comfort is currently you (breastfeeding).

You have a bigger issue than the OP I'm afraid. The central reason for all of your problems (unpredictable naps, unable to settle in the cot, frequent wakes) is all down to one central fact - baby needs to go to sleep where she stays asleep

Your BF to sleep. So the answer, which would get you the most sleep with the least tears would be to fully and properly embrace attachment parenting (which means you are your baby's comfort). So this means embracing longer term cosleeping. If baby was BF to sleep on your bed and then stayed there, you would all get more and better quality sleep.

If you want baby sleeping independently, then baby needs to go to sleep independantly. So go from fully awake to fully asleep in the cot - not nearly asleep going in, not quite drowsy, but awake. All the settling in there.

To achieve that you need to give baby other means of comfort. An incorrect assumption with Controlled Crying is that just teach baby to go to sleep without any comfort. That's never going to work. Babies and toddlers (until about preschool age, so 3-5y) don't have the emotional skills to just lie down and sleep. Comfort, the feeling of being safe and protected, is a need as great as calories for them.

So your DD's comfort is currently breastfeeding. Others use a dummy because it's more conducive to independent sleeping. Other forms of comfort are things like blankies or special teddies - but it takes a while to form a bond with these. You "Habit Stack" to form that bond - so strongly associate snuggling the blankie with breastfeeding, so that the blankie comes to represent the comfort of a feed.

Other things are things like patting, stroking, ticking, shushing - parents develop lots of things they do. The point is to make it a sleep accosciation by doing it in the same way every time, consistantly.

If you want to get your DD sleeping independently, you first need to establish an alternate method of comforting. It's going to take you time to do that. Either time, of a significantly huge amount of crying and extreme distress.

The issue of standing in the cot for you is secondary to the fact that your DD has no independant settling method. You need to sort that, so stop breastfeeding to sleep, to solve that first.

Thank you so much @FATEdestiny that’s so helpful! I do co sleep a bit, it varies each night as she sometimes sleeps very well - we had a spell a few weeks ago of her sleeping through (8pm-5am without a wake up) and I didn’t do anything differently. Prior to that she had been waking only once per night around 2am, quick feel and back down until 5/6am. Prior to that it was waking between 10-12 and then again at around 2 ans 5am. So over time she basically got to the point where she slept through without me doing anything but then for the last few weeks she’s gone back to waking at least twice each night but often 3 times, again usually between 10-12 and again 2-3 and then 5am. Having said that last week she slept through two nights and this week so far she did one night 9.30pm (she wouldn’t settle at her usual 7/7.30 for some reason that night) until 5am. So it seems she’s capable of self settling and connecting sleep a cycles sometimes but not always. At the moment I’m bringing her in to bed some nights as by the third or 4th wake up I’m too tired to keep putting her back in her cot. But as I said some nights she wakes less or not at all! It’s so confusing.

Thanks again for replying and the advice, I’ll introduce a soft teddy comforter thing to start ‘stacking’ over the next couple of weeks!

Just to add - I did co sleep fully until she was 7 months but she got to the point where she was waking every 45 mins or so and latching on to me and it was disturbing me all night. She’s quite a sensitive sleeper so even now if she’s in bed with me and I get up to go for a wee she sits up bolt upright!

It's. Not. Getting. Better. Arghh!!!!

I am starting to think he's just not tired, have pushed bedtimes later but it's not made any difference. Only thing that has is when he has skipped a nap. Would it be a terrible idea to just stop napping him in the day? I normally cap it an a hour anyway. He's nearly two and a half so seems a bit young for stopping naps but bedtime is driving me insane and is no fun for DS either

It wouldn't be unreasonable to drop daytime napping at 2 1/2y. It's early, but not unreasonably so.

The gamble you're taking is - what if you drop naps and bedtime habits still remain poor in the long term. Then you have an even more sleep deprived child than he currently is.

Thanks FATE - yes that's my fear, if it doesn't help then trying to get him to nap again I think will be really hard.

I think I'll try dropping it today and over the weekend and see how it goes, if it helps I can speak to nursery on Monday and ask them to drop it there, if it doesn't hopefully being at nursery with the other napping kids will mean he goes back to it.

Have you considered putting him into a bed with a bed guard on? So he can get in and out himself without climbing out and potentially hurting himself.
That’s what I did, I toddler proofed the bedroom and only left soft toys and books in reach of she got out to play. It means she sometimes at bedtime got up to have a play with her toys then took herself off to bed or fell asleep on the floor and I’d transfer her to bed. It’s worked wonders for us! Dd is now 2.5 and we did this when she was 14 months old because she is a climber and was throwing herself out the cot on a nightly basis and protesting about going in it .
You could drop the nap, my friends dd is the same age as mine and hasn’t napped for 6 months she goes to bed at 6.30pm every night without any fuss and sleeps all night mostly since dropping that nap.
I feel your pain, we’ve had a bit of a nightmare with night wakings recently but I seem to have cracked it again now. It’s so frustrating

Thanks Poppop4, and well done for cracking your night time troubles. I hadn't thought about it really but if dropping the nap doesn't work it's something to try!