Just cannot get bedtimes sorted and it's driving me nuts

[Fifimoomon]

2.5 DS never self-settled (and was generally an iffy sleeper) until I hired a sleep consultant when he was one, and after a surprisingly easy bit of controlled crying, with very little actual crying, he nailed it and for six months went down like a dream for naps and bedtime (didn't sort his night waking mind!)

But one night around a year ago he started crying at bedtime again and I just have not been able to sort it ever since. Initially I would go to him, stroke him and cuddle to sleep. But at points it's got ridiculous, taken hours and I've ended up actually squashed into the bloody cot with him to get him to sleep. I have done numerous bouts of gradual retreat, and I always manage to get out the door but he still cries and I have to stand in the doorway intermittently shhing and singing. Never got past that point.

I have tried just leaving him a few times but I'm not comfortable with it and doesn't seem to make any long term difference anyway.

Tried controlled crying a few months ago but after two weeks no improvement.

Last few nights been particularly bad with him starting to cry before I've even got him in the cot and have just spent 45 minutes outside his door with him crying on and off and me shhing and singing every few minutes (although I don't go in).

I'm fed up and sad that DS is upset most nights. I could go back to just sitting in with him till he falls asleep but I'm worried that this will be disastrous for the imminent move to the toddler bed when he can just get out and come and poke me...

How do I teach him to go to bed without the upset?

The version of gradual withdrawal I use means always staying with him until he is asleep. But over time having the closeness required for him to go to sleep to gradually withdraw.

This sounds very different to what you were doing?

For example:

• Start bending over the cot, hand on chest. Stay until asleep. stay a good 10 mins after falling asleep and sneak out ninja style.
• Once he's OK with this (and not until, so maybe you'll do 20 or 30 nights of the above) start off with hand on chest to settle him. Then stand up by his cot when calm. If he cries, bend back down and hand on chest. When calm stand up again. Keep repeating. Stay until 10 mins after going to sleep and sneak out ninja style.
• Once this is accepted you get to the point where you settle with hand on chest, then stand and wait by cot until fully asleep, then sneak out.
• Once this is accepted, hand on chest to settle, stand by the cot but facing door when calm. Bend back over with hand on chest if getting upset. Withdraw to standing by the cot when calm. Stay until fully asleep.
• Hand on chest to settle. Step away from cot when calm. Wait until fully asleep. Go band and hand on chest as soon as upset of needed, always withdraw to step away from cot when calm. Always stay until fully asleep. Never sneak out before he is completely asleep and unconcious.
• Hand on chest to settle, wait by the doorway when calm. Back to hand on chest of upset. Withdraw to doorway when calm. Wait until asleep.
• Hand on chest to settle, wait by doorway when calm, just once "pop to do something" (toilet, put washing away etc). Make sure you always go back after popping wherever. Wait until asleep. Still go back in and hand on chest if upset. Withdraw as before when calm.
• settle in cot then keep bedroom door open and stay upstairs as he goes to sleep. Straight back inm if upset, withdraw when calm.
• Settle in cot, leave and close door when calm. Stay behind the door listening and immediately respond if upset (he will test you are still there, since he now cant see you). Back in and hand on chest straight away if upset, withdraw and close door when calm. Stay by the door for a good 10 mins after him going quiet.
• Settle in cot, leave, close door, hang around upstairs for 10 mins. Job done, the end.

Hope that helps!

Thank you Fate - I think that's pretty much what I've done, I've moved away in increments, staying in the room until he was asleep (although I can't do the hand on chest until calm, as soon as I move it he gets very upset, so I do shhing instead) This bit has been pretty easy.

But when it gets to the doorway part, he has just never stopped being upset, so I don't get to progress to the next step of you see what I mean? I am stuck in the doorway dishing! Or am I missing something?

Stuck in the doorway sushhing, not dishing!

Nightlight? My 3.5 year old slept in total darkness until around 2.5 when he started to have nightmares. He now sleeps in bright light, but he does sleep well.

Just standing by the door saying shush shush may not be very comforting for him. I would physically go to him when upset.

At first he is going to insist you mostly stay right there with no. Because he doesn't trust you not to go. You've got to develop that trust first, before any kind of withdrawing.

Tried nightlight, but didn't help unfortunately. Could maybe try again, was looking at those projector types.

The problem with going in to him is that I then have to stay until he is asleep everytime, normally with a hand on him. If I wait till he is calm then move at all he absolutely hates it and gets more upset than when I am outside the door sushing. I'm not sure how I get from going in to him from the doorway when he cries, to back to the doorway.

But maybe I need to go back to the beginning and start the whole gradual retreat again? Blergh. I wonder if banging my head rhythmically on the floor would work

But maybe I need to go back to the beginning and start the whole gradual retreat again?

Yes, you do. That's what I mean.

It starts with establishing trust. He has to trust that you'll always give him as much comfort as he needs, all the way through until he sleeps. Only once he trusts that, can you start withdrawing how much comfort he needs - because by that point he trusts that if ever he needs more comfort he will get it.

At the moment, he has no trust in you to give him as much comfort as he needs.

So he deliberately stays awake as a way to keep you there comfort him. His fear (and the reason for crying) is that as soon as he relaxes, you will leave him and he doesn't feel secure enough to be left. So he stays awake until it's impossible for him to continue.

If he trusts you will always comfort him for as long as he needs - it removes any need to fight sleep. Going to sleep should take about 10 minutes. That will only come when he feels secure enough to allow himself to relax as soon as he goes to bed. At the moment he can't - he has to force himself to stay awake so that you will stay and help him feel secure.

Establish the trust that you will comfort him all the way to sleep first.

Thank you! I'll start again.

I have found that it only takes a couple of nights of each incremental position to get from the cot to the door (and its a small room, so there is only so many 'positions' available) without upset as he doesn't seem to mind this, but do you think I should just stay put in each position longer to make sure?

As long as when he gets upset / needs comfort that you immediately back track and go to him in the cot, then withdraw at the rate he is happy with when calm. Don't slow it down unnecessarily.

So standing by the cot. If he gets upset, bend and hand on chest. Withdraw to standing by cot once calm. Stay until asleep.

You know it's time to move on when you have 2 consecutive nights where he doesn't get upset at all - just goes to sleep. If he's still fighting sleep, don't withdraw. I suspect previously you've withdrawn before he was ready. Ready means going to sleep in less than 15 minutes without any fuss.

Once 2 nights straight to sleep - hand on chest if upset, stand a by the door (If it's close). But go back to cot as soon as upset. Standing by the door shushing isn't comforting him, if he's upset go closer.

Only once consistantly going to sleep in less than 15 mins without any upset are you ready yo move on.

All of these need you to first remove the need to fight to stay away. There can be go gradual withdrawal until going to sleep quickly (10 mins usually, certainly no more than 15 mins) without getting upset (Because he feels totally secure).

I shall give it a go! From what you've said I think I've got it right up to the point of being at the door, but have cocked that bit up

Absolute fucking disaster, I've been sat right next to the cot offering comfort but he's been screaming, climbing out of his grobag (just worked that one out tonight), climbing out of the cot, shouting, screaming he wants to go out into living room...I have no idea what to do now. This is ten times worse than the doorway shushing He's currently pulling his room apart and sobbing with me right next to him.

I am so so so sick of bedtime

It's been 3 days. You will need significantly mire patience.

Anyway, you have yourself a behaviour issue there, rather than a sleep issue. How do you deal with unwelcome behaviour generally with your toddler? How do you set and enforce boundaries?

You have some excellent advice here from Fate so I don't want to step on toes. I can offer you something that worked for me which is kind of similar. My second dc slept well after some sleep training until she reached around 2 and the. I just couldn't get out of the room at all. I was driving myself insane, so frustrating and upsetting. Just desperate to get out of the room which I think she could sense and so we went round in the merry go round.

So, rather than sit with her silently begging her to sleep, I started 'organising' her clothes. She had shelves near the door so I stood at the shelves and took every item individually and started sorting through the things she had outgrown. I was right there and not being particularly quiet but I wasn't shushing, stroking, pandering. I just said mummy is doing the washing but I'm right here. She settled much quicker and more importantly I found I wasn't stressed or angry. I did this every night for a few weeks. Sometimes folding and refilling clothes, sometimes sorting through her little socks. Anything I could think of that was quiet but made me look busy. As she settled quicker I started moving in and out of her room to 'put things away' in other rooms but quickly returned. Once she trusted I was always there she would sleep really quick. Eventually I could just kiss her goodnight and say I had to go to my room to sort the washing or do some other mundane chore. The absolute key for me was to get rid of that crazy feeling when you're stuck in a dark room wishing your life away. I will also say op, it will pass. Whatever happens, teenagers don't need back patting and shushing so rest assured this won't last.

Please dont worry about stepping on toes snowdropsandcrocuses, I don't like being the only one in threads and definately welcome a span of different ideas.

Thank you for the replies. Sorry for this later one - I didn't get him to sleep until 10.30pm and then just went straight to bed myself. I honestly do have patience for gradual retreat, I wasn't expecting it to work that quickly! But last night was absolutely terrible, and I don't have patience for things getting worse to be honest, I'm fed up. And I don't really understand what's going on with DS' bedtimes now:

night 1 of new gradual retreat - put him in the cot, he insisted on me stoking his back and holding his hand, upset only if I moved hand so I did that for 45 mins, took hand away for last ten mins and he fell asleep.

night 2 - DS weekend with his dad (I'm a single parent), so this has all been reported to me by him - Dad took him to stay with friends, refused to go in cot, dad stayed with him whole time while comforting but DS was screaming and crying, dad took him in and out of cot trying to settle him (tried lying on bed with him etc), eventually gave up took him into living room and DS fell asleep in front of TV about 10.30pm (this is very unusual behaviour, however there had been a birthday party that afternoon and I think the excitement might have got to him, plus other kids were still up).

Night 3 (still at friends house) - went to sleep within ten mins of going in cot with dad sat with him, no upset.

Night 4 (back home) - went to sleep within ten mins of going in cot, no upset, with me sat at head of the cot, no stroking or hand holding

Night 5 was last night's disaster. He initially lay down ok in the cot and after twenty minutes I thought he was asleep, but I stayed there and five minutes later he was up and saying 'get out' 'no sleep' etc, and suddenly just undid his grobag, and started climbing out of the cot! So he has now worked out how to do this . He was screaming to go out of the bedroom, play with his toys etc, I didn't let him and just lay on the big bed saying its night time now, time for sleep, over and over for three hours, with him climbing on and off the bed and over me, giving cuddles and comfort. He'd lay down for a few minutes then pop up again, kept trying to get out of the bedroom. He eventually fell asleep next to me on the big bed.

Dealing with unwelcome behaviour - depends on the situation but, for example, if he is drawing on paper and starts drawing on the floor instead, I give him a warning that if he does it again then no more drawing, then take away the drawing stuff when he (inevitably) does it again a few seconds later, and explain why, then distract away from situation.

Last night I just kept repeating no playing or living room, it was night time and time for sleep (x 100). No lights on, tried to engage as little as possible but gave comfort whenever he needed it. Did I handle it right?? I was thinking of putting his grobag on back to front tonight so he can't escape, but not sure if that will just enrage him...

snowdropsandcrocuses - thank you for the suggestion, a friend said something similar and I will def give it a try if this round of gradual retreat doesn't work (want to give it a full go first).

Dealing with unwelcome behaviour - depends on the situation but, for example, if he is drawing on paper and starts drawing on the floor instead, I give him a warning that if he does it again then no more drawing, then take away the drawing stuff when he (inevitably) does it again a few seconds later, and explain why, then distract away from situation.

Think about what you will do when you can't distract and remove the issue of the unwelcome behaviour. When he simply HAS to do what he's told.

Off the top of my head an example is going rigid and refusing to get into carseat seatbelt. When you need to leave immediately, there is no option not to. Plus (in this imaginary situation) this is becoming a regular occurrence. How will you seal with it?

This is a similar comparison to bedtime. At bedtime he needs to (a) lie down, (b) be still (c) be quiet. Otherwise he cannot relax his body to go yo sleep. He's refusing but you know for his wellbeing and health he has to. Think of it as a behaviour issue.

Honestly I wouldn’t tolerate this from a 2.5 yr old, maybe I’m a monster but it would be a firm no to the climbing out and winging. I certainly wouldn’t have the screaming, that would a very firm telling off.

You can try reorganising the room a bit, moving it all round, the distraction of the newness might reset. I’ve given a book to flick through and a nightlight. But at the end of the day I would be much firmer. He does it because he knows he has you over a barrel. You aren’t doing him any favours because he needs to learn how to sleep and settle himself. You wouldn’t ‘there there’ him if he decided to go for a walk out on the motorway. It sounds a ridiculous example but that’s what you are doing. Good luck! I don’t mean to sound harsh just difficult to write what I mean. We’ve all been there

I'm so confused. How do I address 'His fear (and the reason for crying) is that as soon as he relaxes, you will leave him and he doesn't feel secure enough to be left. So he stays awake until it's impossible for him to continue.' with being firm and stopping him pissing about for three hours?

I just wanted to shut the bloody bedroom door and walk out of the flat so I can't hear him crying. I won't, but that's what I feel like doing (and obviously guilty for feeling that way!).

Maybe its time to drop another £350 on a sleep consultant

I think you're doing really well OP. If you pay a sleep consultant I suspect they will either have you leave him cry again which is so much harder with a toddler and I suspect will just cause greater issues or go with the method you're already working on. It sounds to me like what you need most is some support. Could you ask ds dad to come round for a few evenings so you can work together as a team? Not sure what your relationship is like but it might help to show him you're both on the same page. It sounds to me like DS was kicking off to test you and the new process. Stick with it for a few more nights. Show him you will still be there but you expect him to sleep. No interaction. No play. No getting back up. I think FATE's advice is really good. Or even what I was saying before. He needs to know you're staying while he needs you but you expect sleep. So maybe if you really feel stressed by just sitting and waiting, take a book or magazine and read by night light or as I said, concentrate on his clothes (not toys because that would be stimulating).

You have got this. Stick to the process. Don't allow yourself to get pulled into interaction. Be firm and consistent and I know you will have success. Maybe if not asking XP you could have someone else come over for support? Someone to sit outside the room and be there for you? Or someone you could even send text updates to so you don't feel alone. It's very hard being a single mum.

Sorry FATE I forgot to reply to your hypothetical situation - I would make him get in the car set, wrestle him into it if needed, firm NOs and tell him it was happening. Bribe maybe. Explain to him when calm later about need to get in car seat.

I don't know what to do now he can get out of grobag/cot. Before I would either be in room with him next to cot giving comfort, or outside the door doing shhing and singing (or going in every two mins as part of CC but that didn't work after two weeks of it and going in and out seems to make him worse).

But that's none of that is going to work now he can get out of the cot. I can just keep putting him back in over and over but he was getting hysterical last night, so I don't know how to balance that with what you described about him feeling secure enough to go (the fuck) to sleep.

snowdropsandcrocuses - thank you! Me and his dad have a really good co-parenting relationship and he is fully supportive (though has always wanted to be firmer than I have and leave DS to cry at bedtime more than I was comfortable with, though I'm starting to think we should have!) He is coming over tonight and we are going to keep going with the gradual retreat. I just feel so...sick of it all. I work full time and evenings are time for eating dinner, clearing up, doing the washing and (hopefully) relaxing. I hate spending them in a dark room.

My plan for tonight is put him in grobag back to front so he can't get to the zip, which will hopefully stop him climbing out of cot.

If he does manage to, do l just keep putting him back in even if hysterically sobbing??

Does he still nap?

I'd be wondering if he was gearing up to drop the final nap and it's knocking his sleep out.

Not very helpful but my DS went through a similar thing at 2.5.

We tried all manner of comforting etc.

One night I was very sick and DH was on a very important conference call. Neither of us could go to him.

20 minutes of crying and he fell asleep. After that he settled for bed really quickly and stopped needing any help to sleep.

I didn't plan to let him cry it out, but it was what he needed.

Some kids do know what they can get away with.