8 months sleep - help!

[Poppy709]

I’ve posted about my sons sleep before, he’s never really settled since the 4 month regression and we’ve bed shared since then using a sidecar cot to try and get him used to his own sleep space. We’ve had some success with this when he was 6/7 months when he started to sleep on his tummy (rolling both ways) and settled down to 2 wake ups a night easily settled with a feed - I felt like a new woman!! Then teething hit and it all went to pieces again, now he’s just learnt to crawl and pull to stand and the last week things have just deteriorated and I don’t know what to do for the best.

At bedtime he goes into his sidecar cot awake and with a bit of bum patting goes to sleep no problem about 7.30, for about 2 or 3 hours. Problem is once he wakes in the night the only thing that will settle him is boob and he’s been waking every hour or 2 if I’m lucky. From about 4am the last week or so he has been so restless, awake every half hour or so and then needing constant back rubbing/bum patting to keep him settled. I’m on my knees, I’m in tears in the night and sometimes finding myself scratching my arms or hitting myself in the head. I feel physically ill all the time from such broken sleep and I’m having heart palpitations and dizzy spells. I go back to work in 2 weeks and will have to get up at 6 and drive for an hour across a busy city centre. I so don’t want to sleep train him because I’ve read so much about how important it is to be responsive at night but I’m scared for my mental health and my safety driving.

Before this latest deterioration I was getting just enough sleep to cope and my husband was taking a week off in August when he will be nearly one to tackle night weaning in the hope that will improve sleep, but I don’t know if I can hold out until then if sleep continues to be this bad.

We have ordered some proper black out blinds to see if that helps the 4am restlessness. Also he has started crawling a few weeks ago and pulling to stand which I know can affect sleep, will this pass as he settles into these new skills? I am giving him lots of time in the day to practice.

I have read the ‘what worked for us’ mumsnet thread and wondered if that might be a place to start. I do like bedsharing with the sidecar cot when it works, I love having him close and not having to get up when he wakes but at the moment it just isn’t working.

Thank you if you’ve read this far!!

Sorry just to add - naps he is on 2 a day, generally one 45 minutes to and hour and one 2 hours. These were both contact naps or in the pushchair but this week am trying to settle him in his sidecar cot for the first nap of the day which has worked with varying success!

I have no experience of this yet but didn't want to ignore. You do need to go to your GP as technically you're self harming with the harm scratching and head banging and you need meds to help you through. I think you need to put yourself first rather than thinking you should do something because the books tell you it's better. Responsive attention at night isn't working and you probably should train him. An unhappy and unwell mum is not helpful to him xxx

I'm not going to give you tips about helping his sleeping but I will tell you that sleep deprivation made me suicidal. And so I sleep trained. If you're in the position you're in, especially with a return to work where you need sleep to function safely, I would sleep train.

Yes, some (SOME) people are concerned about what sleep training might impact in terms of attachment/responsive parenting but I realised I couldn't parent at all if I was so depressed I was suicidal or worse acted on those feelings.

An 'absent' parent (physically or emotionally) isn't better than one who sleep trains.

Many parents who advocate the 'you must never sleep train' stance have very different circumstances to you or I. Their children sleep better or worse, they may not work, they may have great daytime nappers which gives respite, they may have external support, they have children who don't need support to remain asleep in the bed, they may tolerate sleep deprivation better, they may be able to ignore a whining baby better in the bed. I would urge you to prioritise being the best parent you can be overall and not getting hung up on being a good parent because you didn't do something that some people believe is harmful.

You need sleep to be safe. You need sleep to earn money. You need sleep to be a present, active parent. You need sleep to be physically and emotionally healthy.

Your baby relies on you to make the best choices you can within your circumstances. Good luck, with whatever you do. I hope you get some sleep!

Thank you for replying, I had wondered if meds would help me cope better with the sleep deprivation, I was under perinatal mental health because I have PTSD prior to his birth (although am in recovery from that and was treated really successfully) but I have been signed off as my anxiety and mood have been fine when I get enough sleep, it’s all linked to sleep for me so I don’t know if meds would help. I guess I’m scared of saying I’ve self harmed in case they think I would hurt my baby - I never ever would.

I also saw the mental health team for PND, and it was never a concern for them.

I used a sleep consultant for sleep training. I didn't have the strength myself, I needed a plan.

You poor poor thing. Can your husband be on duty until midnight every night so you can go to bed at 8pm and get a stretch of sleep? Then You take over? And can you get extra sleep at weekends?
Babies this age can be up half the night, mine were. It does get better. I don’t believe in sleep training (could never do it as felt cruel) but your circumstances are different to mine

Thank you @absolutehush I know you’re right - funnily enough as a teacher I specialise in working with children with attachment difficulties and have a masters where I specialised in it - none of those children got their problems from sleep training and actually maternal depression and ‘absent’ parenting like you say is hugely detrimental to children. It’s so hard, I just hate the idea of him thinking his mummy isn’t coming.
May I ask if sleep training worked well for you? My mum and dad have offered to have him for the night so I can get one nights rest and then I might be able to approach it all with a clearer head. Xx

OP you need to sleep train him.

You being ill and having health issues is detrimental to both of you.

He needs parents who are looking after him who aren't completely knackered and are at a great risk of injuring themselves due to lack of sleep.

Can your DH bring any of his holiday forward to help?

My DP actually was the one who got my DD to learn to sleep after she started waking up to often at night. According to various relatives and close friends who work with babies and toddlers, fathers are often better at getting young children to sleep.

Oh before and for a good few months after my DD learnt to crawl and then walk, she would move around her cot while asleep. (She would fall asleep in our bed, then be put in her cot, and only if she woke up would she end up back in our bed.)

In regards to his day time naps don't worry where he has them, as when he is in childcare/has someone else looking after him he will have to nap where ever. I got to the point where as long as my DD slept during the night I didn't care where or when she napped.

It’s so hard, I just hate the idea of him thinking his mummy isn’t coming.

Well daddy will come, and daddy will try various techniques to get him to sleep.

@Poppy709 yes, it worked well for us and we used a 'gentle' method (ie didn't go straight to cry it out).

Over 18 months later I would say we still have a good sleeper most of the time - illness, change to routine etc etc all occasionally play havoc but she goes to sleep in her bed and stays there. And sleeps though (from about 2yrs).

I think getting a good nights sleep is helpful so you can think clearly but you do need a long term plan. It took me a while to get over the resentment my daughters poor sleep caused and also not to feel huge anxiety as we approached bedtime. Even now, if she has a bad night I get very worried about it because the sleep deprivation was so difficult for me.

If you want to know more about the tactics we used, I'm happy to explain, although I do agree that you DH should take the lead. I found it very hard and I was glad my DH was there to hold me back!

@RedMarauder thank you for replying, honestly it feels so much better already just having people confirming I’m not a terrible parent for considering sleep training. We’re in a slightly awkward time now in that because of both our jobs (schools based) we can’t have a whole week off now until the summer holidays. I am only working Monday - Wednesday so he could see about getting a Thursday/Friday off to have 4 days to try something together. He is really supportive and is taking him about half 5/6 so I can get a few hours but with DS being so reliant on breastfeeding it’s hard for him to settle, I’m not confident totally night weaning him as he’s not taken to food so well and I do think he’s genuinely hungry in the night. That’s why I thought if we could just get through to 11 months/1 year he would either start improving himself or I would feel happier night weaning. If I could delay my return to work I would but financially this isn’t an option for us.

I paid a sleep consultant when he was around 6 months but despite saying she supported gentle methods she basically told me controlled crying was the only thing that would work and I wasn’t in a place to do that then, it was a real waste of money and I don’t think we can afford it. Ideally I would prefer to try gradual retreat but not sure if me being there will just wind him up more.

Thank you @Oly4 that is an option, DH could give him a bottle for his first wake up around ten and he’ll sometimes go back down for 2 hours, the only problem is with him being in the side sleeper cot my DH is such a deep sleeper I would worry about him sleeping next to him. Also when I go back to work I’m teaching and I’ll have work to do on the evening so not sure if I will be able to go to bed at 8.
I’m with you, the thought of sleep training breaks my heart but at the moment I feel I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place. I’ve no illusions about him sleeping through the night and am more than happy to get up with him but every hour is killing me!

Thank you @absolutehush it’s good to know a gentle method worked, I feel like because he’s used to being in bed with me going straight to controlled crying is really cruel.
I know what you mean about the resentment, I wish I could cope better with the lack of sleep, I’ve always needed a lot of sleep, and it affects everything for me. Maybe I need to think about trying another sleep consultant to help come up with a plan that will work for me and DS.

On a very basic level, a human needs sleep, water and food to survive. At the moment, for you, one of those is missing. In that circumstance, I think resentment is very normal.

It took about 4-5 days for the training to kick in for us, so it's definitely something your husband can start and you can 'finish'.

We implemented it shortly after moving her into her own room. I had hopes that her sleeping would improve without us disturbing her.

It's interesting that yours is a poor eater. So was mine - and I was advised by both the HV and the sleep consultant that this would probably improve if she slept in larger chunks. Logically, it makes sense - if you have a snack every hour, would you ever really eat a big meal? As her sleep improved, so did her eating. As her eating improved, her sleeping did too.

I used a company called Happy Little Dreamers and she was fantastic.

I think you should definitely give your DH being on call until midnight a go. Your DH might be a deep sleeper but he WILL hear a screaming baby next to him. Or he can just put the baby to sleep in the cot and quietly watch TV himself on an iPad til midnight. Needs must. You need to go to another room with earplugs and catch up on sleep.. lack of sleep increases anxiety which will be making your PND worse.
Same for weekends.. DH takes the baby both mornings while you catch up.
It’s not forever

Just to add that my DH commented only the other day (she's 2.5 now, and we sleep trained at 7-8 months) that it's the best money we ever spent.

That’s really interesting about the food and it does make sense, I have considered that we’re in a chicken and the egg situation where he’s having an all night buffet so just isn’t particularly hungry! He also has bad excema so I’m really cautious about food intolerances, although his excema is well controlled now so I don’t think it’s affecting his sleep.
We also tried the moving him to his own room (well, we put the side on the cot and we camped out in his room!) it worked for a few nights and then he seemed to realise I wasn’t there and then refused to go back in his cot at all and would only sleep if I was curled round him. Were you bedsharing at all before you sleep trained? I will look at that company thank you, the lady I spoke to it was obvious she just had her methods and she wasn’t really tailoring anything to my DS it was just controlled crying under various different guises. She also told me I had to night wean at 6 months when I didn’t want to and it just felt a bit much at the time.

We didn't just bed share, she slept on me. Like on my chest. I stayed awake so as not to suffocate her. Then at about 3am I'd swap with my DH. She had reflux as a small baby and never learned to sleep in a cot etc

She'd wake ever 1-2 hours and I'd feed to sleep. God it was awful! All her naps were on me too.

Happy Little Dreamers - she was very kind, and respectful of us as parents and understood that we didn't want to have to do things. My daughter didn't night wean until about 20 months, I'd feed her once per night from about 12 months. But getting proper chunks of sleep (4-5 hours) was great for us!

Wow that is amazing that sleep training worked from her sleeping on your chest, you have given me a lot of hope. We did the same for a long time after the 4 month regression, I would stay up holding him until 4 and then swap with DH. Thank you so much for your kind and helpful comments.

Just to add to the messages you’ve had. I also work with children with attachment difficulties. None of them come from loving, nurturing, responsive homes where the only thing that went ‘wrong’ was sleep training.

You know that human infants are programmed to attach to their caregivers. You know that insecurity is something that develops as part of a pattern. Insecure attachments develop due to persistently emotionally neglectful/inconsistent/unpredictable/ abusive parenting styles. Insecure attachment does not result from one off sleep training taking place in the context of an otherwise nurturing, loving parent-child relationship.

For what it’s worth, I did sleep training. I hated it but it saved my sanity and my DD has been a pretty decent sleeper since then (except when she started nursery and had a really bad cold for about two months). She is also a happy, confident, loving kid.

I'm happy to have helped. Whatever you do, it is just a phase and does eventually pass but I personally found that I needed to be more proactive for my own health.

I think it's really important to say that not all sleep training is cry it out and leaving your baby screaming for hours at a time. The longest she ever cried alone was 10 mins. The longest she ever cried in total (with me there) was 37 mins. It felt terrible at the time, but I was there, talking to her, comforting her, but not picking her up. It happened once and then never again because she knew I would come if she needed but she didn't need!

Thank you @Bancha you’re so right, I do know all of that and I do feel that actually the consequences of a mum who is not well through sleep deprivation for months on end would actually be worse than the effects of sleep training.
Like you say, attachment is incredibly resilient. It actually makes me cross how the attachment parenting movement uses the theory to terrify parents and if my best friend rang me in my situation I would tell them exactly what you told me, but I can’t seem to apply that logic to myself!!!

Oh my god, exactly! I have always felt the attachment parenting movement seems to (deliberately?) misunderstand attachment theory and uses it as a stick to beat mothers with.

Parent-child relationships are not as fragile as those guilt-trippy attachment parenting sites would have you believe!

However, sacrificing yourself for the sake of your child over and over and then quietly resenting them for it... well, that’s another story!

I will say that I did find sleep training hard, but it saved my sanity. We sleep trained/night weaned at the same time as she was waking for really short feeds (like a minute), and then either going straight back down or being awake for two hours and then going straight back to sleep. We do still have bad nights when she’s ill or goes back to the two hour wakes (when she needs less day sleep). But the baseline is good. She normally sleeps 11-12 hours overnight. That means I can deal with the bad nights as I’m not already running on empty. I am also totally responsive whenever she wakes in the night and it hasn’t ‘undone’ the sleep training, so it really has been a (life changing) one off for me.