4 month old naps - FATEdestiny, are you around!?

[MinnieMouse92]

Just looking for a bit of advice/reassurance! My little boy is 4 months old and takes very short naps (20-30mins). He’s generally very happy however can get crabbier towards the end of the day, not sure if it’s because he’s tired!
He wakes around 7.00am-7.30am, feeds (he’s formula fed), dressed and then dragged round the house with me whilst I shower etc. His first nap is 9.00-9.30 depending on when he woke. I have no idea on wake windows as depending where I look, there are so many different suggestions for his age! So I just tend to try and get him down roughly 2hrs after he wakes from his last nap throughout the day, sometimes sooner if he gets crappy. Sometimes he goes down well, sometimes he fights me for a while. He mostly sleeps on the sofa so he is in the same room as me (as to keep with current SIDS guidelines). He has a dummy and tummy pats until he goes off. Unless we are in the car or walking, he will sleep in his car seat or pushchair, or my arms if we are out and about. Ends up being about 4 naps a day. I’m always worrying about where the last nap will fall incase it “interferes” with bedtime. He has a bath at 7pm and then a bottle (I don’t feed to sleep if I can help it, although sometimes he will fall asleep if he is really tired). He then goes down again on the sofa, with dummy and asleep by about 8ish. He then sleeps, occasionally stirring, til his dream feed at 10.30 and then up to bed with me and goes into his Next2Me. He doesn’t feed in the night generally and sleeps ok, but that has changed a bit and has been waking often for dummy and tummy pats, not sure if this is the regression, which I also have a question about... how true is it that the regression will only pass once baby has been “taught” to self settle? I’ve been fearing the regression since before I even had him! Am I instilling “bad habits” with the dummy and patting? He does sometimes come into bed with me about 5am if he doesn’t seem to be settling back down and goes straight back off, so he’s still tired. Is this creating an even worse “rod for my back”!?

Not really sure what I’m asking and reading back I am aware that I am SO lucky, I just can’t get past the idea that I can always “do better” by my gorgeous boy and his naps!

Sorry for the long post, just feel a bit lost with all the conflicting information I see and always trying to do the “right” thing!

Any suggestions for trying to get a longer nap in?

I would not recommend baby sleeping on the sofa. As well as this being against Safe Sleep Guidelines, it's also not a great habit to get into.

If you have nothing for baby to sleep in downstairs then sleeping on the floor (Montessori style) would be safe and ideal. Many babies go to sleep on their playmat during floor time. Or you could use a pram (pushing back and forth on the spot) or bouncy chair (if supervised sleep).

Dummy and patting to settle to sleep is perfect - spot on for developing independent sleep habits. Have a long-term plan. So work towards slowing and stilling your hand when baby is calm, even if not asleep. You can then go towards patting just to settle when distressed but hand on chest (not patting) for going to sleep.

Your awake windows are long, especially for very short naps. 2h is the absolute maximum awake time - so this would be for babies having long, frequent naps. The shorter naps, the shorter awake time needs to be otherwise you enter an over-tired cycle.

I'd suggest an awake window of around double nap length - so 20 minute naps means 40 minute awake window, 30 min naps mean 60 minute awake window. This has some flexibility - so give or take 15 minutes.

To find your baby's natural awake window is very simple - it's just many parents overlook the signs. Basically it's just baby crying or insisting on being held.

If you feed baby upon waking then throughout their awake window you know that any crying is not hunger related. Wind after feeding, so you know any crying is not pain related. Then put baby on floor, if convenient I would do nappy-off time, to allow for better physical movement. So WAKE > FEED > WIND > NAPPY > FLOOR TIME (no dummy). From then onwards any grumpiness whatsoever is most likely sleep related. So leave baby to play on the floor. The first cry you get pick baby up and see if you can find anything obvious wrong (burp coming for example). Take the opportunity to put a clean nappy on. Put back down for floor play (still no dummy). If baby doesn't want to go down, or the next time baby gets fussy and cries - that means it's nap time. Give dummy only at this point, straight into patting to sleep.

Feeding upon waking may mean frequent feeds - more bottles per day. Dont worry about this, it allows baby to get more calories in during the daytime.

Thank you so much! I had no idea where to put him for his naps and sleep at night before going up to bed, as he outgrew his Moses basket. Will get him set up on the floor from now.

I really appreciate the time you have taken to come back to me. Will give what you have suggested a go tomorrow.

Thanks again

@FATEdestiny can I just quickly jump on this thread to say that I love reading your advice and it has been so so helpful to me with my 10mo and 23mo. Thank you

OP I don't have any better advice but I am guessing this is your first and so I'll just say - it passes.

I have 3 6yo and under, and I so well remember the angst about naps and sleep, and how it feels like your whole life narrows to worrying about how many minutes their naps are etc. It does shift, often all by itself, and you will come out the other side, probably sooner than you think.

Sounds like you've got a good routine there. Only thing I would say is put him in his crib after his 7pm bottle he will probably settle better and get used to his bedtime

Also FATEdestiny won't remember me but I remember her helping me with her advice when DD1 was little. Great to see you are still making mums' lives easier!

Aww this is nice. Loving the love on this thread ❤❤

@AlexaStop - I second you, always looking for @FATEdestiny advice, no frills and straight to the point, so refreshing after seeing so much conflicting advice! I know everyone that offers advice means well but I can't help but feel like I'm going to explode sometimes!

@JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff - Yes my first, how did you guess!? I know, every evening I take a deep breath and tell myself that tomorrow I will go with the flow a bit more and that I know it will all pass, but it becomes all consuming sometimes when you just want what’s best for your little babe doesn’t it. I know everyone gets there eventually. Thank you

@Skyla2005 - Thank you! I will when he gets to 6months, I’ll start putting him to bed properly, I just get so worried and anxious about all the guidelines etc and try to stick to them best when I can control it. I’d be lying if I said I stuck to everything (I’ve definitely co-slept and I know that’s not wholeheartedly encouraged, and let baby sleep on the sofa - oops) but I do try where possible! I know everyone does what’s best for them and that’s all anyone can do!

Thank you all xxx

So, didn’t get a chance to try the new routine suggested yesterday as I was out and about most of the day! Have tried it this morning and have had 2 longer naps already! One 40min and one 55min!

I know it’s VERY early but I’m just happy with those longer naps already and so is Babe!

I just have a question @FATEdestiny ... I can do this all the time I’m at home, but how would it work if I have to be out, should baby unexpectedly fall asleep in the car or something and I’m not able to feed him straight away on waking? Should I just feed at soonest opportunity/when we get home?

Also, would I do this all day, up until his “bedtime” (when he sleeps after his bath) til his dreamfeed at 10pm? He doesn’t tend to wake in this time (he’s done this himself from about 8wks, just seems to know it’s nighttime). He might stir but doesn’t really wake so I wouldn’t get that cycle if you know what I mean? So is it ok to keep the evenings the same as they are until he is 6months and I try to put him up to bed properly? Am I overthinking this? I'm over thinking it aren’t I...

I definitely had wake windows all arse about face, he was only awake about 1hr10mins before I noticed him needing a kip!

I can do this all the time I’m at home, but how would it work if I have to be out, should baby unexpectedly fall asleep in the car or something and I’m not able to feed him straight away on waking? Should I just feed at soonest opportunity/when we get home?

Like with a baby (and toddler) is basically all about fitting "general living" in and around baby's feed and sleep routine. So always prioritise baby's need to sleep well (and feed) at the right time as high priority.

If possible, arrange anything you need to do outside the home around naps, even if that means rushing to get home. That can be done two ways:

I used to prefer getting anything I needed to go out (shopping, school run for example) for done in baby's awake time. So get everything ready while baby is asleep - have your baby bag packed, your shoes on, feed ready, pushchair/carseat set and coat on all ready while baby sleeps. Then the moment baby wakes, feed straight away and immediately out the door. Get what you need done done quickly and get home ready for next nap.

The other way is the opposite. Get everything ready while baby has awake time. Then immediately that it's time for sleep go out straight away and aim to keep baby a sleep in moving pram throughout. Then either take a feed with you to have when waking, or get back home when waking for the feed. This way tends to be less predictable.

All that said, there are some occasions when something simply has to take priority over sleep/feed routine. As long as under normal situations you do prioritise routine, then on the odd occasions when it isn't possible just go with the flow, do the best you can and don't worry too much. You can always get things back to normal tomorrow.

But it needs to be something significant and immovable to break routine. If it can be moved, move it to awake time. If it's not essential, wait until baby is older and awake more before doing it, if possible.

Also, would I do this all day, up until his “bedtime” (when he sleeps after his bath) til his dreamfeed at 10pm? He doesn’t tend to wake in this time (he’s done this himself from about 8wks, just seems to know it’s nighttime). He might stir but doesn’t really wake so I wouldn’t get that cycle if you know what I mean? So is it ok to keep the evenings the same as they are until he is 6months and I try to put him up to bed properly?

Keep the repeating cycles of WAKE > FEED > WIND > FLOOR TIME > SLEEP going from waking up until "bedtime" - that being any awake time that happens between 6pm-8pm. At that awake time do your bedtime routine and change into night clothes. Put baby down for the sleep after the usual awake window after bedtime routine (and until 6 months put "to bed" still downstairs with you). From this point onwards leave to sleep. Any wake ups, don't have awake/activity time. So resettle or feed and straight back to sleep. Take upstairs with you when you go to bed and feed at that point.

Life* with a baby (and toddler)...

Perfect... thank you so much for your help ❤️

@FATEdestiny ... just looking for a bit of advice. The catnapping saga seems to have ended and my little boy who was 6 months yesterday has been taking napping an 1hr20 in the morning, 1hr20 at lunch and then a 30mins nap in the afternoon:

Wake between 6.30-7.00
Nap between 8.30-9.00 til 10.00-10.30
Nap between 12.30-1.00 til 2.00-2.30
Nap 4.30 til 5.00
Bed 7.30ish (asleep before 8pm)

He's been so much happier in the day but since the naps have been longer, he's been waking up 3am-ish and very hard to settle! This morning, by 5am he was screaming, ended up giving him a bottle (he's not been fed at night since he was 12wks old) which he took the whole 6oz and back off til 6.45am. I’m not sure if it’s the heat, teeth or genuine hunger, or the longer naps! Please know I am so aware that baby sleeping 7.30pm-3am to start with is great, I know we’re very lucky and I know that night wakings with a baby are just part and parcel. But it’s only really changed in the last few days and I’m not sure if it’s just coincidence - I think I’m just looking for reassurance that the reason for these wakings is not being caused by the better, longer naps I’ve desperately been working towards for him!

Great progress, you're doing fantastically well.

It's entirely possible your early morning wake is due to the heat causing dehydration. But equally could be due to increased calorific need, not unusual at this age. Try upping daytime milk, this will tackle both possibilities.

If upping daytime milk doesn't help or isn't possible, you can strategically use the temporary return of a 10-11pm dream feed.

With regards to your daytime naps, try stretching awake windows to 2h-2.5h now that naps are longer.

Thank you so much ❤️ will try and squeeze some more milk in somewhere today!

Me again! @FATEdestiny - I do not know where I’m going wrong, I cannot get this nap situation right for love nor money. Baby boy is now 6.5m old and every single day is so different. He’s moved to his own room as he outgrew the Next2Me and he’s taken to it so well, naps and night sleeps in there no issue. He goes in wide awake for all sleeps and goes to sleep on his own. But sometimes he will wake from naps after 30mins and sometimes he will happily go back off and sleep for ages, yesterday for example he woke at 6.10, put down for nap at 8.10 and slept until 10am, I didn’t even need to resettle. Same agin for next nap, put down at 12.10 and woke at 1.15, not as long I know. And then had a little nap at teatime, bed at 8pm. He woke this morning at 6.30, put him down 8.30 and he woke at 9.05. I was there ready to settle him at first twitch as I always hang around, at the 30min mark, I patted him, shushed him, cuddled in close and he just didn’t go back off. He went back down at 11.30 and woke at 12.40. I then thought I had a couple of hrs to went food shopping and he fell asleep in the car for 20mins, and then had another short nap 4.30-5.00. He’s gone to bed now at 7pm as he was knackered. Am I doing something wrong here? I know that’s just 2 days but it’s a reflection of how different his naps come out every day. I must add that his night sleep is still good, and incidentally after a really shocking couple of nap days last week he went down at 7 and went right through til 7 the next day. He usually has a later bedtime of 8pm on the days he has good naps and a teatime nap, I don’t mind a later bedtime at all. I don’t know why this is stressing me so much, I’ve started to get really anxious about how a day is going to “pan out”. I’ve spent the best part of a month at home everyday for every nap to try and figure out his pattern and I just don’t get it! Are naps supposed to be this stressful or is it ok to just take it as it comes? I’ve gradually started weaning, not rushed anything, just baby cereal in the morning and have also upped his milk in this time. I constantly feel as though I can do better by him and I am terrified (probably irrationally) of letting things get bad and having him chronically tired. I’m not sure if all this worry and angst is maybe my issue and something I need to talk to someone about. He’s a brilliant happy baby and I should be so pleased, but feel so much pressure for some reason about bloody naps! Sorry for the long-winded and probably rambling message.

Everything you describe is normal for a baby at this stage. He's learning to link sleep cycles in the daytime. So that means

• sometimes he manages it easily
• sometimes he manages it with help
• sometimes he manages it with a lot of help
• sometimes he just can't do it at all.

Are naps supposed to be this stressful or is it ok to just take it as it comes?

You are making this far more stressful than it needs to be. There's usually a couple of months of transitions from catnaps to consistent long naps. You're in that transition, that's all.

When he has short naps, try to reduce the next wake window. Otherwise you get into an over tired spiral. So after waking at 9.05 this morning, I'd have been putting him back down for a nap at 10am.

The following is a good guidance for Wake Windows:

● Wake Window double previous nap length
● Give or take 15 mins (ie, if he's having a grumpy day, do it 15 mins early. If he's alright and you're busy, do it 15 mins later)
● Not more than 2h awake unless nap is over 90 minutes (so double a 1h20m nap should mean 2h40 awake, keep it at 2h).

Thank you! The rational part of my brain that kicks in around now when i've sat down for a couple of hours knows that I am making it so much harder than it actually needs to be. I think I just need to hear it from someone else!

Thank you. I will leave you alone now and if at any point you feel the need to tell me to piss off please do x

I don't mind st all.

And it's normal to get all stressed over stiff like this with your first child. With each subsequent child I became a lot more chilled about it (I've got 4).

You'll be fine.

Thank you ❤️ I hope so, the thought of being this constantly nap-obsessed with another stresses me right out

On the other end of the scale... I put him down at 8am for a sleep and he's still asleep! This is after being up at 6am, went to bed at 7pm so this is after 11hrs night sleep, so I don't think he would be "catching up" from last night or anything. Should I just leave him to sleep as long as he needs?

I would. How's the rest of the day gone?

That morning nap ended up being 2hr 20min! So woke up at 10.20, back to sleep by 12.30, woke at 1.40 and then back down again 4.40-5.05. That last one I did try for earlier but he didn't go til then. Just going back down now. So he's had nearly 4hrs in naps today and I'm terrified he will be up at 4am can't do right for doing wrong the poor boy

@FATEdestiny - Bit of advice if you don’t mind… baby boy is now 8months old, still on 3 naps, haven’t tried to force dropping any naps as I know it’s different for all babies and is more of a “developmental” thing rather than just assuming they can handle it because of their age. We have been in quite a good routine of waking between 6.00-7.00, nap around 9.00-9.30 for 1h20, nap around 1.00-1.30 for 1hr20 and nap 4.30-5.00 for about 30mins and bed around 8pm. Have noticed that baby is getting harder to put down and needs to be awake a little longer than this for naps now (can comfortably go 3hrs between first and second nap), which is pushing that last nap later and later, I’m having to take him for a drive to get it in and I’m cutting it shorter as I don’t really want him going to bed much later than 8pm to make sure he’s getting a good chunk overnight. I don’t know if putting him to bed earlier will cause an earlier wake up, he definitely doesn’t seem to be a baby that will go 11-12hrs, more a 10-10.5hr babe so an earlier bed time will probably mean waking up earlier and a later bed time will probably just mean less overall sleep. Anyway, the last few mornings he has been awake and restless from 5.30, he does doze but he’s definitely not in a proper sleep, and has been waking and restless in the night. I put him down at 9 this morning, he went off at 9.25 and he woke up hysterical at 9.50. I think I put him down too late, but I wasn’t sure if I should be reverting back to earlier naps now that we are on a bit more of a “by the clock” routine, and have also read that earlier naps can encourage the early wakings. On that note following his 30min nap this morning I put him down an hour later (10.50), it’s been an hour and he’s babbling in his cot still, so obviously not ready for another nap). I don’t know if I need to change things up a little or what to do really. I read on a previous post of yours that for 2-3-4 to work baby needs to be having about 4hrs day sleep (can you tell I spend a lot of time reading your advice haha) and I can’t for the life of me imagine this happening any time soon! A 1hr20 nap seems to be about his limit, he wakes up happy and there is no chance he will go back to sleep after that. Should I keep persevering with forcing the last nap or could it be that this is going to affect his night sleep/a cause for the earlier waking?

Thank you x