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Talk to me about naps for second babies

7 replies

Hardbackwriter · 17/05/2021 16:17

DS2 is 13 weeks and had been sleeping brilliantly at night - we've had a tough few nights and I wonder if he now needs a bit more of a schedule/me to put a bit more effort into his naps, but I'm finding it really tricky and wanted some advice! It's ok-ish on the days when DS1 (nearly 3) is at nursery or DH is home, but I can't quite work out what to do when it's just me and the two of them. He'll sleep:

  1. in the sling - for hours outdoors but indoors only if I keep moving constantly and do not bend down or sit down. I also personally loathe having him in the sling in the house - it makes me feel so claustrophobic - but I'm prepared to suck that up
  2. on me after a feed if I stay absolutely still - moving my arm to switch on the TV is risky. This is not an option if DS1 is around as he invariably makes a loud noise that wakes the baby
  3. in his cot - but as he's getting bigger he takes longer and longer to settle in there, I think partially because he seems less keen on his dummy, so it means leaving DS1 to his own devices for too long really (I also know that it's not in accordance with SIDS guidelines to leave him there, which makes me feel very guilty - if DS1 is at nursery I normally lie down too so it's fine, but obviously not if he's about)

He won't nap:

  1. in his pram, which he hates
  2. in the car - ditto (and we don't drive much anyway)
  3. in his bouncer chair, which was DS1's favourite place in the world!

Any ideas on the best way of proceeding? Part of me really wants to persist with cot naps - it makes life so much easier in many ways - but I can't spend an hour settling him while DS1 roams about! But in practice it means he's getting very little day sleep (and that in little bursts) and so is an overtired mess by the evening, which I think may be starting to affect his night sleep.

Any advice gratefully received!

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
FATEdestiny · 17/05/2021 19:16

He is far, far too young to use words like "won't" with any certainty. He's not a fan now, but he will change and may change his preferences. You also have to teach second (and subsequent) children to fit in with family like to have to make them learn certain things, because no alternate is possible.

(I have 4 children)

With my own children - I used a bouncy chair and dummy (after the newborn phase, when it was swaddle, dummy and moses basket). You may need to be consistent about it but the bouncer makes getting baby to sleep while also entertaining a toddler much easier. Baby in bouncer at your feet, you on sofa boucing with your foot and hands free to interact with toddler. It might be that you're leaving nap time too late which is making it harder for baby to fall asleep.

IMO upstairs cot naps are unrealistic if you are on your own with a toddler and baby. The time investment needed (fairly long term) with baby isn't realistic for the toddler. Doable once you're down to just two naps a day though, so it will come in time.

If baby sleeps in the cot, you can also just put baby to sleep on the floor (under play mat?) in the living room. You can just leave baby there to sleep. And it is entirely reasonable to teach your 3 year old not to go near baby when sleeping.

Mummysarah12 · 17/05/2021 21:24

No advice but following as I have same problem - day time naps are a real problem for my 9 week old & a noisy 2 year old around... looking fwd to some advice from others on here! X

Hardbackwriter · 18/05/2021 16:26

Thank you for the advice @FATEdestiny - I read it last night and meant to reply this morning but you know how it is (though I'm sure only having two seems like a breeze to you after four!)

I gave the bouncer another go today but he cries when it's bounced - he's happy to sit in it when it's still, but doesn't go to sleep. I tried for a couple of minutes but it escalated from grizzling to sobbing so obviously I stopped. I then tried him in the cot and he went down very quickly but woke up after 45 mins, clearly still tired and unhappy.

Tbh I think the problem isn't method, it's timing - I'm sure you're right that I'm letting him get overtired. He had slept on and off all morning in the sling (we'd been out all morning) so I had no idea when to expect him to be tired, and I'm sure I missed it.

Do you not think there's any point trying a sort of mixed approach, with one cot nap a day (I agree I clearly can't leave DS1 3/4 times a day)? Is that just destined to fail?

I was really determined to foster good habits from the start this time, which is maybe why I've got a bit fixated on cot naps - with DS1 we did a terrible job and ended up trapped in ever more elaborate, specific and lengthy ways to get him to sleep until we cracked and did sleep training - it was gradual retreat so it wasn't too brutal but there was crying and I'd really rather not do it again. But applying all you learned from the first one turns out to be very difficult when you're now contending with a toddler as well!

OP posts:
Hardbackwriter · 18/05/2021 16:27

Thank you again for the advice and sorry for writing such an essay each time!

OP posts:
FATEdestiny · 18/05/2021 17:12

I was really determined to foster good habits from the start this time

Completely understandable (and wise). The focus doesn't want to be the cot though, the focus needs to be on independence. It sounds like you want to foster independent sleep and the most effective way of doing that is to make independant sleep as easy as possible for baby.

The dummy may well be your saviour. Keep working on it, in fact focus very heavily on getting it accepted. Once you have dummy accepted as the trigger for sleep, then it becomes easier to get baby to sleep wherever is convenient for you.

Often in the first 6 (ish) months though, dummy alone isn't enough comfort for independent sleep. You need another layer of sleep habit. In the cot that might be patting and shushing. In the daytime when baby has to be in the same room as you, most people use movement.

So with your bouncer (or pram) it's not movement alone. Just as dummy alone probably won't cut it at this age. It's both sucking and movement. And being relentless about it.

The important thing you are achieving is baby going to sleep separately to you (so not in your arms/sling). That skill is the important one. It being in a stationary cot is doable - but because you have no movement to layer ontop of sucking as an independant sleep habit, it requires a lot more hands-on (literally) help from you. So it's more doable with first baby than with subsequent ones.

By all means have a consistant cot nap of the day if you like. The first nap of the day is usually easiest so I'd do that one. There is no benefit in this though, it's not teaching any more independence than not going to sleep in your arms another way.

Tbh I think the problem isn't method, it's timing - I'm sure you're right that I'm letting him get overtired. He had slept on and off all morning in the sling (we'd been out all morning) so I had no idea when to expect him to be tired, and I'm sure I missed it.

A way to estimate when the next nap is needed is that your awake window (from waking up from one nap until being asleep for the next one) wants to be double nap length. This awake window includes settling time, so if it takes 15 mins to get baby to sleep then start getting him to sleep 15 minutes earlier.

A more natural way to guage sleep time is crying and clinginess. It would be reasonable that, after being fed and winded (upon waking) that baby will spend all of their awake time on the floor practicing gross motor skills. The very first time baby cries while on the floor, pick up and see if there is anything obvious wrong (a burp coming for example). Use this opportunity to change baby's nappy and put straight back down for continued floor time. At this point baby is (a) fed (b) winded (c) has clean nappy (d) has an activity. So if baby now refuses to be put down, or cries again - then the reason is sleep. Dont tolerate any more than 2 cries - that tells you it's naptime. Likewise clingy baby who wont be put down means naptime.

Hardbackwriter · 18/05/2021 19:44

Thank you again for this detailed and useful reply!

The dummy may well be your saviour. Keep working on it, in fact focus very heavily on getting it accepted. Once you have dummy accepted as the trigger for sleep, then it becomes easier to get baby to sleep wherever is convenient for you.

Any tips on this? DS1 didn't have one, and I'm not sure if we're not doing it quite right because DS2 went through a stage of seeming to like it but now pushes it out with his tongue - he'll accept it if already very drowsy but wants nothing to do with it if he's awake. Even when he seems happy with it he doesn't seem to actually be able to keep it in his mouth very well - it drops out, a lot.

I'm annoyed with myself because he was such an overtired mess this evening that he was a nightmare to get to sleep for bedtime (and it very much was not independent, which has generally been going ok at bedtime) and I'm sure will be awake again soon, which I think could have been avoided if his naps weren't so rubbish today.

OP posts:
FATEdestiny · 19/05/2021 10:19

If he takes it when drowsy then it's probably that he is getting so anxie, stressed and furious when overtired that he's just not willing to accept anything, so it's not dummy specific.

General tips on getting a dummy accepted would be:

  • try different types of dummy (specifically different types of teat - orthapedic, cherry teat, flat teat, larger, smaller and so on).
  • try at different points in the day - when awake/happy, when playing, when awake but clingy etc.
  • Give dummy as part of your calm-down tactics. For example the 5 S's for calming a distressed baby - Swaddle, sucking (dummy), swaying, shushing, sideways (sideways cradle hold, so baby is facing your torso rather than facing upwards)
  • Try constantly. This is the single most important thing when getting a dummy established. Keep trying constantly and all the time.

Active sucking

Dummy should never just be passively in baby's mouth. If it is, take it out and start again. It should be being actively sucked (until baby is in a deep sleep, when sucking stops and dummy drops). Think of the dummy in a similar way to considering latching when breastfeeding. It's got to be actively done, you don't just put nipple in baby's mouth passively.

  • Tickle baby's cheek with the teat so he reaches for it.
  • Tickle baby's top lip with dummy, again so it is actively reached for. Never just put it in baby's mouth, it needs to be "latched"
  • Point dummy upwards when putting it in mouth (after it's been actively reached for with baby's mouth). This triggers the sucking reflex
  • tapping the outside of the dummy gently when it's in babys mouth triggers the sucking reflex.
  • If baby isn't actively sucking even when trying all the above, remove and start again.
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