Where do I start?!

[OhToBeASeahorse]

DD is almost 7 months. Wakes every 2 to 3 hours. Cosleeps - but gradually I have managed to increase the distance between us so basically we are just both in the same bed now. All naps are in the sling.

I did gradual retreat with my son which worked brilliantly but he was eating more solids. She just isnt interested yet. Can I do anything while she still has night feeds?

I have no time from her at all at the moment, nap times are spent with me being careful not to wake her and I get no evening because she usually doesnt settle unless I'm there.

I have just got her on the 2-3-4 routine and she has a breastfeed straight before bed but she often falls asleep on it.

Are you feeding every time she wakes?

The first step would be to work on a way to get her to sleep that isn't feeding. Do you have any way of doing this?

I'd also fully seperate feeding and sleeping to assist in learning yo settle without a feed. For example do your bedtime breastfeed on the sofa, then take her up, bath, into night clothes and in to the bed to settle her from bring fully awake to asleep without feeding.

Thank you! I try to give her a 6pm breastfeed but she just isnt very interested and then seems to want to get tanked up when we are in bed! We had weight issues when she was younger so i
was feeding basically anytime she was vaguely interested.

Now sometimes she will wake and i will just put my hand on her and shush and she goes back or sometimes will 'feed' for about 30 seconds and be asleep again. I'm trying to get her into her cot, she fell asleep in in 2 nights ago just being patted and shushed but woke up 3 times in the first hour.

She has the same routine every night and white noise and a dummy as sleep cues (doesnt have the dummy for anything else)

Have you tried to sidecar the cot to your bed? Its a good interim from cosleeping. It's important that baby goes to sleep in the cot if you want her to sleep in there, rather than being put in there asleep or nearly asleep.

If you use a dummy then you definately have a way to encourage independent sleep rather than feeding to sleep. If she wants tanking up before bed you can move the feed anywhere, just as long as it's not immediately before sleep. Could you feed before getting nightwear on, for example. Then put down and settle using a dummy.

For night wakes, always try for a good 10 minutes to resettle using the dummy and hand on chest instead of feeding. Give it a good try to resettle every single wake up. Sometimes she'll still not be settling after 10 mins and so feed at that point. With baby then being properly awake the feed should be more substantial. But sometimes your resettle with dummy will work and the more you practice the more she will successfully resettle.

That's really helpful, thanks so much!

At the moment we are bath, dress, book, boob. I'll try switching the boob and the book.

I'm on a mattress on the floor of her room so wouldn't feel safe sidecaring because there would be a drop. I'll try and settle her in the cot again tonight...

Complete disaster. Had woken 8 times by 10pm. This is breaking me. I need to get her into the cot. Ended up bringing her in with me.

She's very wee still

Dr Jay Gordon's method toward core sleep hours might suit you
www.drjaygordon.com/blog-detail/sleep-changing-patterns-in-the-family-bed

FWIW I just kept my older kids on my knee in the evenings so I could watch TV/read/sew as they slept then I took them to bed with me when I was ready

@OhToBeASeahorse sorry I’ve no advice but just want to say I’m right here with you, holding my son whilst he’s woken up for the umpteenth time tonight. I’m shattered and broken too. Message me if you need a chat x

@OhToBeASeahorse

Complete disaster. Had woken 8 times by 10pm. This is breaking me. I need to get her into the cot. Ended up bringing her in with me.

To be fair, you asked where do you start? I didn't realise you wanted to make the whole jump from cosleep to independant sleep. I just thought you wanted to start taking small steps towards that.

Important question alert:

Do you really want to make the jump from cosleep to totally independant sleep in the cot, all in one go?

It's ok to say yes. But... (big but) it will be very, very brutal and exceptionally distressing for everyone. Going from cosleep to independant sleep is The Most Brutal of all sleep training.

I make this point deliberately because you need to be ready for it. Half-ass will not do. If you're teaching independant sleep and wanting results quickly, you must (MUST) be emotionally ready to do it fully, committed and consistantly. Consistency is key.

If you cannot face that level of physical and emotional stress and distress from both you and baby, then don't do it. Because half doing this will make everything worse and harder and take longer. Being consistent is vital. If you can't be consistent, find another way.

That doesn't mean you need to plan to forever cosleep with frequent wakes, you can still take steps towards more independant sleep. But these are not going to get your baby in a cot all night the next day. You need to be realistic on that.

So you need to ponder. Are you fully sleep training for independant sleep by the end of this month, and ready for how brutal that will be? Or are you looking to take steps towards independant sleep with a much longer, gentler outlook?

@FATEdestiny I wasnt criticising you. I was very grateful for your advice. I dont want to do it brutally. But I do need to start getting closer to being in the cot for something.Trying to get her to sleep in the sling while I'm entertaining my toddler is horrendous.

She has made progress, she is now happy on the same mattress as me but quite a distance away. But the cot is another matter apparently!

A sidecar cot?

(That's a full sized cot with one side removed, butted up to your bed with the matress heights matching)

That means you can physically get your whole torso into the cot to cuddle/settle as needed. But then extract yourself to the bed when baby is settled.

Gentle way to get baby used to sleeping in the cot.

I cant get the heights the same - I'm on a mattress in her room so her cot is higher than mine. I could just do my mattress and her mattress on the floor? Or would then the sides freak her out?!

Is the cot base at its lowest level? You could take one side off and see how it marries to your mattress on the floor. Adult mattress are usually much thicker than cot mattresses so the heights may more or less match.

My main point is that if used to Cosleeping she is unlikely to tolerate being lowered into a cot and being totally seperate. This way you can cosleep within the cot, to get her used to it. Then when used to it more add the side back on.

That's a good idea, thanks.

At this point would you say its crucial that she is awake when put in the cot? When we did did gradual retreat with our son the first step we did was get him asleep in our arms (without feeding which may be a problem for this one!) then transfer. Then we worked on reducing support.

It depends where on the scale you lie - from "gentle, take your time" up to "sleep in the cot all night asap"

It might help if I explain the reason for the importance of going to sleep in the place they stay asleep.

In the first 3-4 months of life, baby's sleep is passive, as it was in the womb. It isn't in cycles, it is just the case that as long as all needs are met then baby's passive state is asleep.

From around 4 months sleep matures to be more adult-like, in the it develops into cycles of deep sleep and light sleep. Awake is now the passive state and going to sleep is an active endeavour.

Why do humans sleep in cycles and not just stay in a deep sleep? It is evolutionary from caveman times. Humans needed to be safe from predictors, even when asleep. So they developed cycles of lighter sleep between deep sleep. The light sleep phase allows for an "environment check", a semi-concious check that all is well before going back into a deep sleep.

In adults that environment check may just be a shuffle around, turning over, pulling the duvet up. It's when you're sort-of-awake-enough to do something, but not awake enough to properly be aware.

Now imagine you went to sleep in bed as normal, go to shuffle position between sleep cycles and suddenly realise you are no longer in bed, you are now in the back seat of a car. You would not just move positions and go back to sleep. You'd pretty calm quick be dealing out, thinking WTF happened and be wide awake very suddenly. That is exactly what the light sleeping environment check is for. Most times you don't notice it, but when something happens you are awake.

This is why it's important that if you want baby to sleep in the cot, they need to be fully aware of going to sleep in the cot. If they go to sleep in your arms then in the light sleep phase they will be awake and freaking out very quickly thinking "Where's mummy!? I was in Mummys arms, where am I? What us happening!?!"

....................

So anyway, all that explained, if you want baby to sleep in the cot, it is very important that they go to sleep in there. If they don't, expect wake ups.

You can teach that quickly with lots of crying. Or you can teach is slowly with less crying. But either way baby needs to learn. Just depends how vital it is for you for baby to sleep without waking in the cot.

(Worth noting as an aside, that if baby goes to sleep next to you, ie cosleeping, and stays there without moving to the cot. Then chances are they will wake much less frequently then if moved to the cot while a sleep. Because the environment checks won't cause alarm. So if the ultimate aim here is less wake ups, then longer term cosleeping might be the answer)

"You'd pretty calm quick be dealing out.."

Should read:

"You'd pretty damn quick be freaking out..."

Thanks so much @FATEdestiny. Last night she badically fell asleep in the cot (with my arm around her) and did a 2.5 hr stretch. Tonight she wouldn't go to sleep unless fed and has already woken again and wouldnt settle without feeding.