@FATEdestiny - Dummy Talk

[FiloFaxx]

Thanks for your reply about dummies in the other thread.

If I introduce the dummy again, and we have the dummy wars all night again which was the original issue, do you have any advice about how to keep it in? 🤔 The original issue was disturbed sleep as she kept spitting it out all the time. Thanks!

Remind me of the details - how old is your baby? When did you start using a dummy? Is the spitting out a recent thing or has she done it from newborn?

What is your daytime nap schedule?
What happens at night to get her to sleep and during night wakes?

Baby is now 6 months and 2 weeks.

She never took a dummy from the start but when I stopped breastfeeding at 12 weeks we introduced one again and she started to take it but could never keep it in. Preserved and it got better but then through the night she kept waking and I'd put the dummy in and it was in and out lots through the night and at 5 months we had advice to drop it altogether so we did. It helped a lot but through the night I felt I didn't have any other method to help settle her and its progressively got worse.

She naps 9/9:30am for an hour to an hour and a half. Second nap 12:30pm/1pm for 1.5 to 2 hours. Won't ever want to go down for a third nap. Bedtime is now 7pm and she isn't bad going down for that either.

She's been teething really bad but has never been good at going back to sleep through the night especially without the dummy. So I'm thinking of introducing it again for night sleep especially to help soothe her with the teething and hopefully better sleep for all of us. But I am worried about it falling out through the night again as last time I'd be awake for hours with my hand in her crib. But it's better than her crying and being unable to settle her. This last week I've just been holding her and letting her sleep on me and having to stay awake myself and I can't cope with that anymore 😴

That's all easily sortable

They are decent naps, although 6m is very early yo have dropped the 3rd nap. The only thing I would suggest to improve your routine on 2-nap days (which may improve your night sleep) is the 234 awake windows of 2-nap days. So aim for each awake window yo be longer than the last. 2h for the first awake window, then 3h then 4h until bedtime. I notice your awake window between the two naps is 2h. This may either mean your 1st nap needs to be earlier or your 2nd nap later. Getting daytime naps right helps avoid over tiredness over night.

Onto the dummy. I can see straight away your fundamental error:

But I am worried about it falling out through the night...

The dummy is meant to fall out. If you are expecting the dummy to stay in baby's mouth all night and so are considering it "Not working" if it's not, then you have absolutely the wrong idea of dummy use.

The purpose of a dummy is to assist baby to calm themself from being awake, into the light sleep phase.

From the light sleep phase sucking stops (Dummy served it's purpose) and baby fairly quickly goes from light sleep to deep sleep. Once in a deep sleep then all of the muscles in the body relax, that includes mouth and jaw muscles - the muscles holding the dummy.

So the dummy is meant to drop out. That is the "tell" that baby is now in a deep sleep. It should take about 10 mins in an ideal world - that's the only length of time dummy is in baby's mouth.

So baby gets into a deep sleep, mouth slackens, dummy drops. Now what? Well on from here you have to tackle whatever is the reason for baby waking frequently. It's not the dummy. Dummy has no relevance on baby waking up.

There are a million reasons that could be causing baby waking. Not going to sleep in the cot is a common reason from 4 months onwards. Or the need to comfort feed or hunger, especially around weaning. Over tiredness is another very usual one, or poor daytime routine.

All the dummy does is make going back to sleep easier and quicker (with fewer tears). With nothing causing baby to wake frequently, baby's sleep is cycles of deep sleep > light sleep > deep sleep > light sleep > deep sleep > light sleep... and so on. Usually the periods of deep sleep are longer at the start of the night and get shorter.

You'll note that high quality sleep does not involve > deep sleep > light sleep > awake. There is no waking in good quality sleep. Since the only purpose of dummy is awake > light sleep, it has no effect on waking up. It has no effect on staying asleep. It only improves going to sleep.

So rather than focusing on the dummy. You need to dismiss your dummy shaped red herring and start working out what's causing baby yo wake up.

One thing I didn't mention earlier is developmental. Some babies wake up simply because they are not developmentally ready for long chunks of sleep.

I don't know if any if this will help you? I hope it does. I know you have a bee in your bonnet that dummy is the reason for your baby's difficult sleep. I respectfully entirely 100% disagree with this.

I hope you don’t mind the hijack on the thread but a quick question for @FATEdestiny (as this makes so much sense to me, thank you!) - do you think replacing dummy in the initial 10 min when moving from awake to light sleep is ok?

Yes, definately. Worth looking at why it's coming out as well as reinserting it. So that you can look to tackle whatever it is longer term.

It could be:

Some novice dummy users sort of "fumble" it out if their mouth. Especially littly newborns. They simply need more practice.

Frantic sucking can result in it coming out. This is likely to with be hunger (Stop persevering with dummy and feed) or overtired (just accept that baby needs extra help for this sleep, but avoid bring over tired in future).

Being over tired can also give rise to inconsolable crying. Many other things can case such crying too. That can be hard to get dummy to stay in because baby is so frantic and hyped up. Work on extra calming down tactics (movement, white noise, subdued background, patience. Then work on active dummy sucking, not passive.

Dummy should never sit passively in baby's mouth when awake. Baby should always be actively sucking it. If it's not being sucked (So just sitting in mouth) then it drops out more easily. Tapping the our side of the dummy triggers a sucking reflex. Also when giving the dummy use similar tactics to latching- tickle cheek/upper lip so baby actively reaches yo take the dummy. If it's not being sucked and tapping it doesn't help them remove and start again getting baby to actively "relatch" the dummy teat.

(But I'm relation to keeping baby sucking, remember than in light sleep phase sucking will slow and stop. If you keep making baby suck at this stage you are actually keeping them awake and not allowing baby to relax into unconscious sleep).

It may drop out because baby is in the deep sleep (as explained in post above) or nearly-but-not-quite in a deep sleep. These are annoying because the dummy drop can actively wake baby up from that light sleep. So watch baby closely for that first 10 mins of dropping off to try and catch this before it comes out.

Finally, sometimes dumny just comes out for no particular reason, just because baby doesn't have the self-awareness and coordination to keep control of it. It's worth it to develop motor skills in relation to dumny use so that baby can manage their own dummy eventually. By about 8-9 months they usually can.

Do things like put dummy in baby's hand so they put it in themself. Put the teat in baby's hand so it need to be turned around before being put in mouth. Put dummy in floor/matress for baby to pick up themself and put in.

With my own children I used to sew a ribbon onto the chest of the sleeping bag, with a press stud at the end to attach the dummy to. Ribbon long enough to reach the ear but no longer (So can't go around neck). This served many purposes:

• in the dummy reinsert phase it meant I could find the dummy and reinsert it all without opening my eyes, moving from my bed or even waking up (I used a sidecar cot).

• Baby very quickly learnt that a sweeping motion under their chin found the ribbon, which in turn found the dummy, so putting it in unassisted was much easier

• it established that dummies were only associated with sleeping since they were only attached to the sleeping bag. So never used when awake (Dummy use when awake is the single factor that gets dummies such a bad reputation. But most parents are not that lazy)

• once baby was a walking/talking toddler, while many parents are battling to get their child yo sleep, a simple "would you like your dummy?" Can get DC actively asking to go to sleep, so they can have their dummy which is only ever attached to the sleeping bag.

@FATEdestiny thank you so much for such a detailed reply. You're spot on with our focus on the dummy. I've got a rational head on this morning and have had time to read and take it all in. When she kept waking up before I'd put it back in then it would fall out before she was sleeping but I didn't really think about there being another issue underlying. Also the bit about it dropping out within the 10 minutes makes so much sense.

Last night I offered dummy when she woke up about 11ish. I held her to calm her down then gave the dummy, took her a while to suck but was calm and fine when I put her down again! Then slept until 3am when we did the same again then she woke up after 7am!

Regarding naps - it's always been tricky got us. She would only sleep 30 mins at a time then refuse to sleep in the evening so all this makes me wonder if it was the over tiredness you mentioned. At the moment we do have an awake window of about 4 hours from last wake up to bedtime and she does go to bed well it was waking up that's an issue.

I've always thought three naps would be better but she would scream if I even tried to get her down. Was trying to follow her cues but maybe got the timing all wrong.

This morning because of a better sleep she woke up later than normal so I was thinking nap soon (2 hours) so should I try the three hours gap next then four and go to bed later if she wakes later. Or try and look at encouraging three naps?

My DD1 goes to nursery so sometimes she ends up falling asleep in the car. Especially at pick up before 1pm so I've been trying to get baby to go got a nap after this when we get back. She goes usually go down within 5 mins again but maybe it's having an affect too.

Is DD1 still napping? Because if she is then the Nirvana to aim for is both napping at the same time in the afternoon.

How are you getting baby to sleep? Is it the same for naptime, bedtime and night wakes? Are daytime naps in the cot?

No she doesn't nap anymore.

Yes she goes down in her crib for naps with white noise and chats away to herself then falls asleep. Few whinges when she goes down at bedtime but the night wakes were a struggle to get her settled at all until last night with the dummy.

I was meaning baby sometimes falls asleep in the car as its so close to nap time 🙈

So when you say you struggle to get the third nap, it could be that baby is needing extra help to get to sleep. That is a better assumption than assuming baby just doesn't need/want it.

3-nap days generally go for around 2h awake windows, perhaps stretching a bit esp with the last awake window but still keeping it in the region on 2-3h.

To keep the third nap, you have to think more carefully about the timings of naps 1 & 2. If they get too late, then you'll mess up the last nap.

Also worth remembering that the third nap is always hard work. It is almost universally for all babies. Expect to need to take the third nap on the move (pushchair walk or bouncy chair nap for example).

For example:
Wake - 7am
Nap 1 - 9am - wake at 10.30am if not already awake (so that you have a 2h awake window to next nap)
Nap 2 - 12.30 - wake at 2.15 if not already awake (so that you have a 2h awake window to next nap)
Nap 3 - 4.15 - wake at 5pm if not already awake
(so that you have at least 2h awake window to bed, but stretch this to 3h if baby will have it)
Bedtime 7.00-8.00pm

This is quite similar to the routine you already mentioned, but with the addition of the third nap. Were you doing your third nap on the move already? If you had been trying for a third cot nap, that was the problem.

If baby is struggling to get to sleep, you would be better to assume it's because more help/support is needed to get to sleep, rather than assuming it's just that the nap isn't needed.

The transition to 2-nap days comes as a result of Naps 1 and 2 getting longer. You should be routinely resettling at the end of these naps, when baby stirs to try and help back into another deep sleep cycle. Are you doing this? Dummy reinsert is the most effective way to resettle. If you get to the point where every day you are always having to wake baby up at the end of the nap, that's when it's probably time for the transition. At that point leave baby to sleep for as long as they like for Naps 1 and 2, stretching your awake times to 234 and so dropping the last nap.

The overtireness that results from lack of daytime sleep leads to baby's light sleep phase being lighter (more restless sleep) meaning that light sleep more frequently results in waking up. This gives you night wakes.

So for third nap we've never tried it on the move I've always tried to do it in the cot so good to know actually a thing that it's a struggle!

I like that your example is similar to what I'm doing and I can try and slot the third nap in. I think bouncer/swing is the best thing for us as at that time I'm trying to get dinner etc sorted for my toddler.

How long is the goal for two longer naps would you say?

Sorry for all the questions by the way I really am appreciating the help and everything you're saying makes sense to our issues.

So today second nap was from 1ish but woke at 2:15pm. I was a bit in two minds of what to do as it was only an hour but if I was thinking of a third nap today I thought should I get her up. I went in to see how she was (if crying I'd have resettled) but she was wide awake and smiling so I got her up and have fed her. I'll try for a third nap later on and see what happens 🤞

Youre looking for consistantly getting 3h-4h of daytime sleep over the first two naps means the 3rd isnt needed. You take this in conjunction with your night sleep too. So if baby is getting 11-12h of largely uninterrupted sleep over night then err on the lower end if 3h. If baby is routinely getting less than 11h and/or broken nights then err on the side of more daytime sleep needed.

You also need to be certain baby can link sleep cycles before moving to 2-nap days. A daytime sleep cycle is usually around 45 minutes, so the marker you are looking for is 90 minute naps, which is two cycles. Naps of an hour or less and almost certainly only 1 cycle and means baby hasnt linking the cycles. Resetting is important to practice linking cycles.

Thank you so much xx

Morning @FATEdestiny. I'm sorry to bother but you but I'm at end of my tether.

Last night I tried to get her to sleep in her swing but she didn't. Looked tired a few times but didn't work.

Overnight she woke up after first half hour of sleeping then it was really frequently through the night, didn't want milk, didn't want the dummy, wouldn't suck it.

Put her down for nap today and she's only had half an hour but again when I tried the dummy she didn't want it or would just push it out her mouth. I held her and put it in and she took it but didn't suck.

I feel like I'm so obsessed with sleep schedules now I'm going crazy when nothing I'm trying to do seems to work.

You've done lots and lots of chopping and changing with your DD over the last few months. It's not a surprise that she doesn't settle into the new way of things straight away.

She needs a good few weeks of consistency in order to settle into it. You really want to be using the dummy consistantly too - what with your history of use it / don't use it at all / use it sometimes. This is not helping the situation. Consistency is key.

Short naps need short awake times, so adjust when the next nap is if you just had a short nap. 30 minutes nap wants about 60 minute awake window. Otherwise over tiredness gets worse.

Lots of babies at 6 months are still in the short frequent map phase, so don't worry about that. Just go with it.

At night, can you sidecar the cot so that you make dummy reinsert easier for you?

Finally, are you ok? Sleep deprivation is much harder to cope with if you get anxious over it. The worrying won't change any actual outcomes, just make it harder for you to cope. Remember to speak to your doctor if you need to. PND/PNA can creep up on you and it makes you feel like you can't cope, when in fact you can.

Thanks it has been so much change and not actually being consistent or trying something got long enough without me thinking "it's not working, what now"

OK just read this after putting her down after two hours but I'll keep this in mind if she only has half an hour. She's had 40 mins so I've went up and popped the dummy back in but she seems wide awake 😬

I've still got her crib right next to me so that's fine with not having to get up to do it but just popping it alone isn't working just now she needs a cuddle which is fine of course for me. I'm just glad she wasn't screaming when I put her down last night that's an improvement in itself.

Thanks so much for asking if I'm OK, really means a lot and brought a tear to my eye as I don't think I am coping really well with this. I've actually got a GP appointment next week, couldn't get any sooner, to speak to her about my mood as I am a bit concerned about post natal anxiety. I've had anxiety issues for years but this is like another level right now.