Advice on 2yo sleep

[Kcoffecakebubs]

So my son has never been the best sleeper. But lately I have run out of ideas on how to try and make things better. He has just turned 2 and is in a toddler bed for info.

Currently he refuses to nap, and has done now for a couple of months. He will nap in the car sometimes, or at around 3/4pm if he just crashes due to overtiredness.

If he doesn't nap, he'll be asleep in 5-10 minutes at 18.30/1900. If he has a nap that finishes anytime after 12pm he won't go down till 9pm and it takes hours!

Once he's asleep he'll sleep until around 1 or 2 am and then he's wide awake for 2-3 hours. Then he'll go back to sleep for however long he was awake for. This has been like this for a couple of months now and we're getting to the point where it's becoming really difficult. The handful of times he's ever slept through its 10hours max. We have to be lying next to his bed during all th bedtime routine and the night waking or he'll start running about.

Anyone else had a child like this? Or any advice, tips, pointers! Anything for my sanity? I've tried health visitor but they just said try the disappearing chair- so far chair hasn't really moved! I feel like he's immune to sleep training!!

Help me and thanks! 🤦🏻‍♀️☺️😴

This sounds like a boy who has never been taught how to go about calming and stilling his body so he can relax his muscles and mind, then to go to sleep. Plus he's clearly not learnt to do any of that on his own.

Your waking in the night, the spending ages awake rather than going back to sleep, the difficulty napping and the subsequent difficulty going to sleep at night after napping - these all all caused by the same thing. He does not know how to make his body go to sleep.

What's your plan going forward? The path of least resistance here is to teach him how to still and calm through cosleeping full time.

Given he's now in a bed, teaching him these skills will be infinitely more difficult without you there, because he's able to get up and make himself even less likely to go to sleep by being up and active. The disappearing chair (mentioned by your HV) is the pathway to independent sleep. But, as you have found, this will be a very long and slow journey to get there.

Yes I am aware he doesn't know how to get to sleep on his own. And he's not a calm or still child, never has been. But I have no idea where to start as nothing seems to work.

We have tried cosleeping too, as for a while this was the path of least resistance as he went straight back to sleep when he woke. But around 4 months ago he started to be awake for hours even when he was in with us.

We tried lots of different methods when he was younger and nothing worked. Then certain methods were taken out of our hands when he went into a bed at 18/19months- as we can't walk away and leave him. The disappearing chair just seems pointless continuing, as from everything I've read it suggests it shows progress in days/weeks. We didn't for a month solid and never managed to get further than a foot away from the bed.

I've ran out of plan, this is why I am here asking for advice. I feel like we're stuck in an infinite loop where we can't cut the bad cycle and it impacts the next night/day etc

I get that you've tried everything. I can help you with a plan going forward (I'm a sleep consultant). I do need an idea of what your plan going forward is though?

Cosleeping will be the easiest option. Expect to be cosleeping for 3-4 more years from here. There are ways you can teach your baby to be still/calm. This will be the easiest, fastest way to teach her and involve the least distress.

You're approaching gradual withdrawal (disappearing chair) in the wrong way. This too can work to teach your toddler to be still and calm. But it's a long, slow journey to get there (more like many months, not weeks). Is this preferable to cosleeping for you?

There are other options. For example repeatedly returning to bed. Or putting a stair gate on and then ignoring her for increasing lengths of time. But I don't think you are likely to actually teach good habits with this one, she'll just end up sleeping slumped on the floor by the stair gate - which clearly isn't good sleep hygiene.

In a nutshell - pick a method, do it consistently and with good expectations/understanding of what you are aiming for at each stage and, be consistent long term.

Thank you, Ideally we don't want to cosleep long-term as I am a really light sleeper, so he keeps me up even when asleep. And also he is very big for his age, over 99.6th centile line, so physical space is an issue here too.

We did try a Stargate on his door but he can climb over it. So that doesn't help either. This is why he was in a bed earlier than anticipated, as he was climbing out the cot and hurting himself.

Any help on how to get him to settle better in his own bed would be much appreciated and welcome.

I may have posted on a thread of yours previously about going into a bed too soon. I don't want to labour a point already made, but it would have been better to tackle the cot climbing and solve the actual problem, rather than bypass the problem by swapping to a bed, thus creating the extra problems you now have.

You're now effectively needing to tackle the same cot climbing problem, as it has evolved rather than gone away. So really it's just delaying dealing with the same issue.

(I can recognise writing this that it's coming across as preachy, I'm sorry, I will start again now framing it better. But I've decided to not delete the above for the benefit of anyone who may read this thread)

Any help on how to get him to settle better in his own bed would be much appreciated and welcome

OK - I'm going to explain a method called Gradual Withdrawal. It's sometimes called the Disappearing Chair but at your stage you are not even at the chair, let alone it disappearing.

Step 1 - Building the trust - Stay until asleep

The single important thing to develop here is trust. Your child must trust that you will always give him as much comfort as he needs to go to sleep and will always stay until he is fully asleep.

If you ever have, or ever do, sneak out of the room before he is asleep and he spots you, then you will lose that trust. What happens then is he feels the need to fight his sleep and stay awake as a way to make sure you don't go. Because he gets scared when you go and he doesn't trust you not to go. So he fights his own instincts to sleep to stay awake as long as possible, just to keep you there.

So it is vital to start by building that trust. Throughout all of this it's very important to stay until a good 10 mins after falling asleep and then sneak out ninja style. Never go too soon, he must always be asleep and not wake when you leave. This includes bedtime and all night wakes.

This stage will take you a long time, so expect little or no progress in terms of withdrawal until that trust is there.

Being Still and Calm

While building the trust that you will always stay and give him the comfort he needs until he is asleep, you can be teaching him to be still and calm at the same time.

Start with a very clear expectation. Think of the saying "you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink". You cannot make your son sleep. But what you can insist (not allowing it to be a choice) that he lies down, is still and is quiet. Then give him zero options but to lie down, be still and be silent. This will then force his body to calm and relax, even if this is against his will, because you give him zero options of anything else. He will then most likely go to sleep because he simply has no option but to calm and relax.

Start with a mantra - a simple sentence that encompasses exactly what you expect of him in toddler language. For example: Sleep time now, we lie down still and quiet to sleep. Nan night. You use that mantra constantly, constantly repeating it to him word for word.

Your start point is cosleeping to go to sleep, so we start there. You (or DH, but this whole process is best done with the consistency of a single parent) will lie down in bed with him.

Then keeping him still. In a cuddle, nice way while cosleeping but physically restraining him to keep him body still. Get used to "holding his hands" as he goes to sleep. but have both of his hands in one of yours, held to his chest or torso. This keeps his arms still. Likewise lay your other arm (or a leg) over his legs in a view of encircling him in a cuddle. It is to keep him still.

Follow a very predictable routine but short routine in the run-up to bed. For example:

1. Cuddle on the sofa while having milk
2. Upstairs and into night clothes
3. One (only one) short story, 5 mins maximum.
4. Say mantra to remind of expectations. Instruct he gets into bed
5. He gets into bed independently (small things done independently is important to help him understand he has power over the situation himself)
6. You get into bed. Get the position (as explained above) to keep him still.
7. Once you are settled, say mantra snuggle in. Adopt a , dont ignore him but also dont converse or engage. Just smile and show you care and cuddle in. Do not be in any rush to get out of the room. You MUST stay until he's fully and deeply asleep, no matter how long this takes.
8. Wait

What if he wont be still, quiet and lie down?

You are lying down with him, cuddling him in such a way to keep him physically still, youve said the mantra and closed your eyes...

-If he makes any noise, starts fussing and moving around, or tries to get up. use the mantra. Repeat it in a way that he should understand what you want, emphasising what he's doing. For example "It is sleep time now. We lie down quietly AND STAY STILL when sleeping. Nan night"

Use of your facial expressions is important. Positive, caring, compassionate when he's calm. Ignoring him or being annoyed because he's awake won't help. It also then means that as you adopt a when he's not following your instructions, it has more impact compared to the usual caring facial expressions.

• If he CONTINUES to move around or not be still. Then sit yourself up and get out of bed. Stand up. You are now taking steps backwards through your bedtime routine. Youve stepped back to (6) in the numbered list above.
• Adopt "NO! It's sleep time now, we lie down quietly to sleep" .
• Now we re-do the bedtime routine from here, so effectively give him a chance to start again. So you get into bed (now with compassionate, caring face), say mantra, get in cuddle position, wait.

What if he STILL wont be still/quiet?

Keep repeating the same process over and over again. You might need to repeatedly stand up and start again dozens and dozens and dozens of times. But don't let up. Zero tolerance on anything that is not still, quiet, lying down. So dont let him do it.

If he is repeatedly carrying on when you stand up, start standing him up too. Bend to his level and get eye contact for your "No! It's sleep time..." mantra. Then start again at (4) or (5) on the list.

This is a behaviour issue, treat it as such. If this is your first child then dealing with a toddler pushing boundaries (ie wanting to do something that they are now allowed to do) is a normal part of parenting and something you have to learn to deal with. That is all this is.

Just keep repeating. Out of bed, stern face, mantra repeating, back into bed to try again, compassionate face, cuddle to keep still, wait.
Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat Repeat...

It is a battle of wills and when it comes to boundary pushing, it's your role as a parent to win that battle because you do have a better understanding of what is best for your childs wellbeing than your child does.

Stopping the battle to stay awake

So he's now accepted that he's got no option but to be still, quiet and lie down at bedtime. and that you will NEVER TOLERATE anything else. But he's still taking ages to go to sleep.

That's back to the trust issue previously mentioned.

Once he trust that no matter what, you will always do the same, you will always have the same expectations. You will always play out those expectations in exactly the same way, you will always stay until he is asleep, you will never leave before he is asleep... Only then will he have no reason to battle to stay awake.

You have to get to the point that he's not battling sleep before you move on any further. So do not do any of the next section (which ill write on another post) until he is falling asleep in around about 10 minutes of going to bed. Consistantly.

(to be continued)

So he's now accepting the mantra: we lie down quietly and be still to go to sleep. He has also developed some trust in you that you will be predictable and consistent. He trusts that you'll always stay until he's asleep and is never aware of you leaving the room. He knows that you'll come quickly to him when he wakes in the night and respond in the same way, with the same expectations, as bedtime.

So the battle to stay awake is less necessary, so he can fall asleep quicker but it needs a lot (a very lot) of your help and assistance to get there. Now it's time for Gradual Withdrawal.

Basic premise of Gradual Withdrawal

Start with three central points. Keep these in mind always.
Rule 1 - Always stay until fully asleep
Rule 2 - At all times give him as much comfort as he needs
Rule 3 - Always withdraw when calm (keeping in mind Rule 2)

See that bit in brackets, it is important.

So you stay until asleep as a "given" that is never, ever questioned. Then you give him enough comfort so he feels safe, comforted and protected. But you have a plan to withdraw in a gradual way so you give him "just enough" comfort and constantly get him used to slightly less comfort (without ever not giving him enough comfort).

The idea is during the time it takes to go from awake to asleep on any given night:

• give as much comfort as is needed while ever he is unsettled.
• once settled, then withdraw ever so slightly.
• if then subsequently get unsettled, go back to giving extra comfort but as soon as calm withdraw ever so slightly. Keep repeating.
• Over time he will become more tolerant of the slightly withdrawn state, because he trusts/knows that if he ever needs more comfort it will be given immediately. So you just need the extra comfort to settle, then slightly withdraw as he is settled until asleep.
• Then slightly withdraw a little bit more when calm. Then more and more and so on.
• Always stay until asleep.

Gradual Withdrawal Example

There are many different ways to approach this, at different speeds. You need not follow this exactly, it's to give you an idea.

◘ Start point: Lying down together. One hand holding both hands on his torso. Other arm encircling his head. Leg over his legs .Do this all of the time until you have developed the consistency and trust so he stops fighting sleep (as described in previous post)

◘ Start off as above. When calm uncurl your leg. Re-curl your leg if unsettled, remove your leg when calm (every time when calm). Stay until asleep.

◘ Start off with full body cuddle. When calm uncurl leg and let go of DS's hands but leave your hand resting on his chest. Go back to full cuddle if unsettled, withdraw when calm. Stay until asleep.

◘ Start off with hand on chest and arm around head. When calm remove hand off chest. Go back if unsettled, withdraw when calm. Stay until asleep.

◘ Start off lying next to DS with hand on chest and cuddled close. Remove hand when calm and very slightly lean away. Back if unsettled, withdraw when calm.

◘ Start off with hand on chest but no other part touching. Remove hand when calm. Hand back if unsettled. Stay until asleep.

ASIDE NOTE: Never be afraid to go back several steps if very unsettled. It's OK to go back to full body cuddle if never it's needed (Rule 2 - At all times give him as much comfort as he needs). As long as when he's calm you withdraw and if you've progressed further along the ladder you will be able to withdraw more and faster. But there may be many times where you take a few steps backwards on this latter. Times when for whatever reason he needs extra comfort, not less. That's OK - so with it (Rule 2, Rule 3)

◘ Start off with hand on chest but no other part touching. Remove hand and turn to face upwards when calm. Turn back and hand back if unsettled. Stay until asleep.

◘ Start off with hand on chest but no other part touching. Remove hand and turn to face away from him when calm. Turn back and hand back if unsettled. Stay until asleep.

◘ SIT next to him on the bed to settle (not lie down) bend close, encircle him in a cuddle and hand on chest. When calm keep hand on chest but sit up out of the cuddle. Go back if unsettled, withdraw when calm. NOTE - Because of the move from lying on bed to sitting on bed, we have increased the cuddle levels to compensate.

◘ Sit next to him on bed with hand on chest and face bent close to his to settle. Sit up when calm and remove hand. Stay until asleep.

◘ STAND next to bed but bend down close to his face (stroke face or similar) with hand on chest to settle. Remove hand and stand up when calm. Stand right by the bed, facing him with a kind face if he looks to you. Wait right there until fully asleep. Dont be tempted to leave early (resist the urge to rush these last steps, or you could end up back at the start with no trust).

◘ Stand next to bed. Bend close to face and hand of chest if unsettled. Stand and wait when settled.

◘ Stand next to bed. Bend close to face and hand of chest if unsettled. Stand and face the doorway when settled. Wait, dont move, stay until asleep.

◘ Bend close to face and hand of chest if unsettled. Stand a few steps away from the bed and face the doorway when settled. Wait, dont move, stay until asleep.

◘ Bend close to face and hand of chest if unsettled. Walk to doorway and wait there settled. Always go back if needed, if getting unsettled. Withdraw again when calm. Dont move away from doorway at all, stay until asleep.

◘ Bend close to face and hand of chest if unsettled. Walk to doorway and wait OUTSIDE THE DOOR (with door open, so he can see you) when settled. Go back in immediately if needed. Withdraw when calm. Stay until asleep.

◘ Bend close to face and hand of chest if unsettled. Walk to doorway and wait OUTSIDE THE DOOR (with door open, so he can see you) when settled. Have a quick thing you need to do. Whisper to tell DS, promise you'll be back fast. Keep your promise. Just popping to the toilet is a good one. Only be 30 seconds. Get back and then wait until asleep.

◘ Make your "just popping to the loo" a minute or two. But always go back, you need to keep that trust. He needs to know you will immediately respond if he needs extra cuddles so always very close by as he goes to sleep.

◘ Make two or 3 little "pop to do something". Always go back. Always be immediately avalible (and respond) if he feels he needs extra help from you. Always withdraw when calm. Always stay until asleep.

◘ Develop a promise that you'll stay upstairs with the door open as he goes to sleep. Keep looking in on him but dont stay at the door. Stay upstairs and closeby. Rule 2 - if he needs extra help give it immediately. So keep his trust that you are there.

◘ Now it's the time to close the door. This often takes a few steps backwards because he may not trust you are still there when he cant see or hear you. So settle in bed, promise you'll stay upstairs until he's asleep (as before) but close the door. I recommend waiting right outside the door listening. He will almost certainly call you a few times to "test" you're right there as promised. Stay until you are convinced he's asleep.

◘ This may well be your place going forward. Bed, close door, then find a few jobs to do upstairs (putting washing away, tidying up, or just lying on your bed scrolling on your phone) for 10-15 minutes while he goes to sleep. Assume that if you've not heard from him in that 15 mins that he's asleep and go downstairs. But if he does call you in those first 15 mins, be prepared to go in to him quickly and respond to him need for extra comfort (rule 2) but always withdraw when calm (rule 3). Then hand around upstairs until asleep (rule 1)

I realise my post(s) are massive, sorry for the essay. Hope that helps. Good luck!

Thank you. I've just had a read while.my husband has swapped in as he's still not asleep and is currently just jumping up and down and giggling. I'll definitely have a more thorough read tomorrow and hopefully we can try and implement the suggestions. A lot of it makes perfect sense, and some of it is things we already do. Eg- always stay with him until at least 10 mins after he falls asleep, give him comfort, put hands on him, cuddles etc. Go to him when he wakes. So hopefully we have at least a bit of what we need to start off.

Thank you for taking the time to post all that, I really appreciate it. (And yes we did move him to a bed too early, but he was hurting himself then broke the slats, so we had to buy a new something and just went for the for bed! 🤦🏻‍♀️)

jumping up and down and giggling

That's not an appropriate thing to be doing at bedtime. Tell him off! It's tough parenting of poor behaviour that is needed here.

@FATEdestiny we do, we tell him. Repeatedly lie him down, he just refuses to stay down whatever we do. He just doesn't give up. I feel like you think we aren't doing anything or not trying, but we are, he just seems immune to all our attempts.

Finally fell asleep at 10pm last night. Slept through till 6am.

Repeatedly lie him down, he just refuses to stay down whatever we do

I know you do, I'm not dismissing that you try to stay on top of his behaviour. But it is eventually the case that your efforts are not effective, because he carries on.

This is behaviour that is damaging to his wellbeing. It could be damaging to his health. Toddlers (and teenagers alike) do try to behave in ways that is risky, dangerous and not good for themselves, because they don't understand the risks. When it comes down to matters like this, you simply have to find an effective way to parent that will stop behaviour that is harmful.

Maybe think about how you deal with other risky behaviours (running in the road, climbing up high surfaces, refusing to wear seatbelt).

I can see how you dealt with one risky behaviour - cot climbing. It was to remove the cot. This didn't actually solve the risky behaviour, it removed the option (and just moved the problem elsewhere). This time around you cannot remove the possibility, you have to face it head on and tackle it.

It's difficult for a random person on the internet to suggest parenting methods without knowing/seeing you. So I can't really help too much here. But what is needed is you and your husband have to approach this whole situation with a zero tolerance. Have higher expectations of his behaviour - He can and should follow basic instructions from you. Find a parenting style that suits you that will not allow for any jumping around and whatnot until 10pm.

Whatever you are currently doing regarding your toddler a behaviour at bedtime is not effective. You have no option to remove the means of this behaviour (You can't remove a thing or move the child to another room for time out, things you can do in the day). So you have to change your parenting method here. I don't doubt you are trying, but what you're doing is not effective and needs to change. Have higher expectations of her behaviour - don't just give in and accept you tried, but the unhealthy behaviour just carried on. That's not good enough, expect better.

You are the boss, not your toddler.

Hello... I'm reading all of this and panicking. My 16 month is just as you described in your post. I'm cosleeping, but he just doesn't lie still when he's awake and it goes on for 3-4 hours from about 1am.
To be honest, reading this post has made me also worry about his daytime behaviour too :(