5 month old will only nap for 1 sleep cycle unless held!

[NZBD]

I know there’s multiple threads on similar topics on here, however most relate to night sleep rather than naps so wondering if anyone can help.

My 5 month EBF baby was always held for naps up until 4 months old and had nice long naps during the day, and managed decent stretches of sleep at night with 2 feeds in between. Then the 4 month regression hit 😫. Night time sleep went crazy and after holding him half the night I decided I could no longer carry him for all naps too. Started putting him down drowsy but awake and patting to sleep with dummy. Amazingly he took to this super quick and within a couple of days he would fall asleep in 2-3 minutes. However he will never sleep longer then 35 minutes maximum!

This has remained consistent for the last month, so I have the option of either giving him 4-5 x 30 minute naps or going back to holding him to get a longer nap. I’ve tried everything I can think of, waking him briefly to interrupt his sleep cycle, starting the shush pat from around 20 minutes to soothe him through to the next sleep cycle, leaving him in the crib 10/20 minutes to see if he goes back to sleep but nothing works!

Tried a sleep consultant but didn’t get any new suggestions, was just told to work on night sleep and this may in turn improve his naps. Thing is he can get through sleep cycles on a night. He’ll have bad nights where he’s up every 2 hours but on a good night he’ll sleep from bedtime at 8pm through to 3/4am so he is able to self settle!

Wondering if anyone has any ideas? Is it a developmental thing where he’ll just get it on his own at some point? Or am I missing something? Super stressed now as I’ve got a few events coming up in the next couple months and I’m just picturing myself unable to participate because I’m sat with a sleeping baby attached to me! It doesn’t help that he’s super clingy when awake too so I literally don’t get a minute to myself all day!

Sorry for the rant, just feeling pretty desperate after shelling out more than I could afford for a sleep consultant and still being stuck with the same issue. Help!

Oh I should add that even when held he stirs between sleep cycles and needs rocking back to sleep, which makes sense given that’s how he initially fell asleep. I just dont understand when he’s falling asleep in the crib with little to no help why he can’t get back to sleep after the first cycle. All I read everywhere was that putting him down in crib awake was the key and yet it’s failing miserably!

Putting baby down to sleep in something that moves is key to teaching baby to link sleep cycles effectively, in my view.

I'd suggest a bouncy chair (At your feet, as you sit on sofa bouncing with your foot) for this. But pushing a pram back and forth on the spot works too.

The idea is baby goes down independently, uses rhythmic movement yo go to sleep and stay asleep. Initially (and when overtired) you may need to keep the movement going constantly.

After a while you just need the movement to initially settle and then again to resettle between sleep cycles, as a way yo lengthen naps.

After a while longer, less and less interaction needed to resettle after the 30-45m mark and naps naturally extend to 90 mins plus without any resettle needed. Then move to static cot naps, when no resettle is needed.

In terms of the resettle - key is to restart bouncing at the first "tell" baby is coming out of a deep sleep. The idea is to get baby to go from deep sleep to light sleep and back to a deep sleep without waking up. So if baby wakes, you missed the chance and it's too late.

The tell might be very slight - the hand making a fist, face screwing up, arm/leg moving, head moving to one side
You need to catch it before any cry and before eyes open. Reinsert dummy and restart rythmical bouncing. It won't always work initially, but try every time at every nap. Occasionally it will be successful and over time it will mire often be successful and also need less interaction from you.

That makes sense, but I’ve tried in the car seat and the pram and he still wakes up even if we’re still moving. He falls asleep consistently in the car seat, even without the dummy and sometimes well before nap time however he never sleeps longer than 20-25 minutes at a time. Same with the pram, even if I’m still walking or driving. Do you think I just need to keep practising it? Or is it a developmental thing?

It is developmental, it is part of the progression that happens out of the Fouth Trimester (some people call it the 4month sleep regression). So your DC is most likely we developmentally ready, or will be very soon. They still need to practice to establish it though, even when developmentally able to. So the more they practice, the quicker they get it.

They key is having an established way to resettle that works. Because without this they never can learn so short naps can go on and on and on.

Do you think I should just keep practising in the cot then? Since this is where I ultimately want him to sleep and he naps fractionally longer in there then in the pram/car seat anyway? Just not sure what else I can try in terms of resettling him. Sleep consultant advised leaving him in the cot for the duration of time that I’d like him to nap, regardless of how much earlier he wakes up and that eventually he would know that he needs to sleep the allocated amount of time but that didn’t seem likely to me. Any thoughts? Thank you for taking the time to reply, all of my friends etc have babies who sleep with no parental effort required and so it’s hard even finding someone to get advice from!

You could keep going with the cot resettles, if you like. The "pro" to this is that there will be no transition for daytime naps in the cot. The "cons" are:

• it is likely to take baby longer to learn to resettle with help. Because patting is less effective than movement. So shorter naps for longer.
• you will need to sit in the bedroom for the majority of the nap, so you are there to instantly notice and respond to the tell when coming out if the deep sleep (before waking).
• There is a TV / box set/ Netflix on the telly in the lounge. Plus the sofa is comfy. In comparison the bedroom is very, very dull for you. And you'll be there for a very large chunk of your days, for many weeks/months.
• The kitchen is closer to the sofa than your bedroom - allowing you to fetch food and tea more easily (or wash pots and do laundry, if so inclined).
• Sleeping in the cot is established with night time sleeping anyway. So once naps are longer and less frequent- it's not like it's hard to move them to the cot. The cot will already be established for sleeping in. So the transition you may worry for later down the line really is a big fuss over nothing.

Sleep consultant advised leaving him in the cot for the duration of time that I’d like him to nap, regardless of how much earlier he wakes up and that eventually he would know that he needs to sleep the allocated amount of time but that didn’t seem likely to me. Any thoughts?

I'm a sleep consultant. This is a ludicrous idea. Baby will just get more and more over tired if you keep stretching awake times too far. Over tired babies are harder to get to sleep and will wake more easily (So more likely to wake after 1 sleep cycle, ratger than being able to settle back into a deep sleep without waking).

A key to reducing over tiredness (So making resettles easier and more likely to be successful) is to reduce awake windows between short naps.

As a general rule, awake window wants to be double nap length, plus it minus 15 mins. So if you have a 30 minute nap, I would start settling baby back to sleep after 45 mins awake, so that baby is asleep within 45-75 Mins of waking (So this allows for up to 30 mins settling time - adjust when you start settling according to how long it usually takes).

HTH

Thank you @FATEdestiny for such a detailed response. In your own experience does consolidating night sleep often lead to improvements in naps? I just ask as he’s started to do a little better at nights since I used some of the tips from the sleep consultant, and was told this could help improve his days. However I’m doubting the validity of a lot of what I was told now!

I didn’t think that sounded like a good idea. I’ve been going off his age recommended wake times, 2-3 hours at the moment. Is that not right then?

I'm of the belief that more sleep leads to better sleep which leads to more sleep which leads to better sleep... In an upward spiral. (And that the opposite downward spiral is also true)

So absolutely, better night time sleep will help give better daytime sleep. More/better sleep often results in even more/better sleep, in a perpetual way.

As for awake times, I wouldn't go longer than 2h awake window until naps are around 90 minutes or more. While naps are short, awake times also need to be short in order to avoid over tiredness (and the downward spiral of bad sleep results in even worse sleep).

@NZBD I'm having the same issue.

I can only get one cycle in the cot and can actually only get get down in the cot for the first nap of the day.. she refuses all other naps unless pram/sling/car (at a push)

Pram/sling I can get quite lengthy naps, if we're moving.

I have been trying to make out first nap of the day in the cot to get her used to it but as I can only get one sleep cycle it seems to be setting us up for very short naps all day then with awake times sometimes running into 2-3 hours which is far too long (5 months DD)

So based on what you've said @FATEdestiny would you suggest I scrap the cot nap first thing and instead get out with the pram and get her linking cycles instead?

I was trying to work on her self settling as she's a terrible sleeper due to reflux (now medicated) and has always relied on being fed to sleep. Now she relies on the pram. She won't sleep in chair swing or bouncer but fresh air seems to knock her out within 5 minutes when she's ready for a nap.

Honestly we had this and eventually he napped for longer and longer and had longer awake times! Didn't do anything special and at around 6 months he eventually slept in the pram for naps and would stay asleep if you pished him when he started to stir after one sleep cycle. I think it's just a developmental thing.

@TangBloodyFastic glad I’m not the only one! I have the same problem with the short naps then messing up the days routine. Today we had 3 x 30 minute naps so had to give him a 4th nap in my arms which he wouldn’t wake up from since he must have been overtired but then it was running dangerously close to bedtime! Does your DD connect cycles ok on a night?

@GreenLeafTurnip that’s what I’m hoping for! Was it just the pram that your little one managed to sleep for longer naps in? I really hope something just clicks developmentally soon and this issue works itself out because I’m currently just obsessing over his naps. It’s seriously depressing because I feel like I can’t take him anywhere or do anything because he gets really upset if he’s tired so it’s either that or I sit and hold him all day while he naps

@NWM12 also the car but eventually he transitioned to the cot/our bed. I don't remember exactly when it was but it does get better! Remember they're still so little at that age. They spent 9 months being walked to sleep and then bam they're out in the big wide world expected to sleep with no warm body or movement! I think we all forget that they existed before being born 🤣

Following as my nearly 6 month old is also a bad napper and nights are pretty terrible too 😂 @NZBD how are your nights OP?

@TangBloodyFastic would you suggest I scrap the cot nap first thing and instead get out with the pram and get her linking cycles instead?

First nap is always the easiest for when you're working on something, so you do have the right idea. But I suspect you are 'trying to run before you can walk', as the saying goes.

When the time comes to move naps to the cot, then starting with the first nap of the day is right because first nap is easiest. But why now? Your baby is, I assume, used to the cot with night sleeping? Yes? In which case there need be no "getting used to the cot" (different if you are cosleeping though).

The most effective use of your time is to move to cot naps once you're getting longer naps. I mean, you can move to cot naps now. Nothing terrible will happen if you do. But it's significantly more effort from you for next to nothing gained in terms of baby's development.

@NWM12 I’m currently just obsessing over his naps. It’s seriously depressing because I feel like I can’t take him anywhere or do anything because he gets really upset if he’s tired

This is a bit of FTM coming out here, not having the perspective to see how much is head if you. I mean this kindly btw (just in case that tone not coming across).

Naps are important. Over the next two years your life will, indeed, totally revolve around naptimes, making sure baby/toddler doesn't get over tired and having to plan your days/time around that.

So when you say "obsessing" over naps, yes that is the case for every mother and every baby. But that does not need to be depressing or stressful. You could choose to just accept things as they are, that daytime sleep is (very) important for your LO and so life revolves around it. With our making that "A Thing" that you have to stress about.

Likewise, I feel like I can’t take him anywhere - yep, another thing that is just part of having a baby and nothing to worry, stress or get depressed about.

Until baby drops to one nap per day (around 18 months old, so in about a year), you will always struggle to fit in getting stuff done out of the house. Day trips are very hard. Even half day trips are difficult until you know you will confidently get half a day without needing a nap. And that's about a year away for you.

But there's lots of future ahead if you. You don't need to go and do stuff in these baby months. You don't need to take him anywhere if it's making you miserable doing so.

Speaking as a mum if four, my tip if you absolutely have to go out to do something (shopping for example) is while baby us sleeping (in bouncer) get together everything you need to go out. Have your shoes/coat on and everything packed for baby ready for when baby wakes. Then as soon as baby wakes, feed and wind and immediately out the door. You're on the clock, you've probably got an hour before you need to be home ready for next nap. So be fast and efficient and make sure you are back in time.

The alternate is to do your trip out while baby is asleep in the pushchair. But this might only give you half an hour out. Same idea though, be all ready for when baby needs a nap and don't fanny around - get out, get it done, get home so that when baby wakes (grumpy) you are ready for feeding and whatnot.

I personally favour 'Getting Stuff Done' in baby's awake time. Then just vegging on the sofa watching TV during nap times.

@Laur89 nights were consistently awful for a while, he would wake up anywhere from every 45 minutes to 2 hours all night long and scream hysterically unless he was fed. However since last week I try my best to only feed him once during the night and that’s helped massively. Last few days he’s done a 6 hour stretch from bedtime (resettled a few times in the crib but I don’t pick him up) and then 3-4 hours after that. I’m not counting my chickens though, we’ve had a couple of good nights in the past and then gone right back to square one

@FATEdestiny I think as a FTM I had some unrealistic expectations. I thought maternity leave would be lovely trips to the park and coffee shops with baby, but first we had lockdown to contend with and now the sleep issues. I appreciate the practical advice though so thank you. I’ve just got him off to sleep in his bouncer, he knocked out straight away bless him so let’s see how long he lasts. The other thing I wanted to ask was regarding the dummy. He only takes one to sleep and spits it out within 5-10 minutes of being asleep. Once he stirs or wakes up from his sleep cycle I try to give him it again however he won’t take it, whereas at night when he stirs occasionally I pop it in and he drifts back off to sleep. Any reason why he refuses it during day naps? I thought since he was initially falling asleep with it it could help him through sleep cycles but he flat out refuses it

@FATEdestiny
Thanks so much for the response

Yes, we were co sleeping but I felt like we were disturbing each other so have moved her to the cot. Her overnight sleep is ok but could be better. We get a solid 3 hours from 7pm (sometimes 4) but then she tends to wake every 2 hours and wants to feed. I suspect some of the feeds are only habitual not hunger but am "feeding" back to sleep as she is used to the comfort sucking (EBF)
From 4am she often wakes hourly

I will revert back to all naps in something which moves as I am concerned about the lack of long naps and feel she really isn't getting enough daytime sleep
I just was trying to avoid having to walk 10miles a day just to get her to nap and giving myself a bit of a breather with the first nap of the day being in the cot. But would rather she sleeps for longer.

Will I see the transition where she doesn't need the movement to link cycles? Do I keep my walks short and then watch for the lighter sleep at the 40min mark rather than walk for 2hours and keep her asleep the whole time?

Sorry for all the questions

@NWM12 see above.. she can link cycles overnight but we can't seem to get any longer than 4 hours once in a night. Not sure if this is down to her not taking enough milk when she does wake for a feed or if it's just a habit and needs the comfort to get back off - either way it's very tiring
I see your DS will do 7pm - 3/4am some nights - I can only dream of those kinds of nights - so it could be worse

@FATEdestiny sorry for slightly hi jacking but your comments all make sense to me and are so useful. I have a 5 month old too. She too will only nap when held or in the sling but that works fine for me as I have a toddler so she usually sleeps while I’m out at the park with him. Problem is she also cosleeps and I want to get her into her cot...how do I do this? She feeds to sleep atm so I’m really starting from scratch 😬

@TangBloodyFastic I mistyped above, what I meant was the last few nights DS has slept from bedtime (8pm) through till around 2am. He has a feed and then will go back to sleep for anywhere from 2-4 hours. But like you said after 4am it’s all touch and go, sometimes he’s up every hour too. But I definitely agree that it could be, and actually was a lot worse.

Maybe you should try cutting down to 1/2 feeds a night? Whatever you feel comfortable with. With my DS previous to the sleep regression he was sleeping through with just 2 feeds at 3 months so I knew he was capable, and was now probably waking more from habit rather than hunger. So I set 2am as my feed time (exactly halfway through the night should be sleep perfectly) and decided I wouldn’t feed him anytime before that. It took only 2/3 rough nights of having to settle him by any other method before he’s started sleeping longer and through till 2ish. Like I said it’s only been a few days of improvement but might be worth a try for you too?

@FATEdestiny well he slept for 1 hour 5 minutes in the bouncer. First half an hour he was startling awake every couple of minutes so I’m not sure if that counts? Then he slept soundly for the next 35 minutes, one sleep cycle I’m guessing. I had to stay bouncing him pretty much the whole time but I had my hands free which I guess is an improvement

The other thing I wanted to ask was regarding the dummy. He only takes one to sleep and spits it out within 5-10 minutes of being asleep. Once he stirs or wakes up from his sleep cycle I try to give him it again however he won’t take it, whereas at night when he stirs occasionally I pop it in and he drifts back off to sleep. Any reason why he refuses it during day naps?

When he goes to sleep all of his muscles relax, including his jaw and mouth muscles. So dummy will drop when asleep. It's meant to. In fact it's the sign that he's now in a deep sleep (So good).

Dumny sucking isn't always going to be needed between sleep cycles. It depends on his levels of awakness in the light sleep phase. On times when he has stirred but managed to stay largely unconscious and then returned to a deep sleep (which is what we are hoping to teach), then his muscles aren't awake enough to hold the dummy. And his brain isn't alert enough to think about the mechanics of sucking.

In such circumstances a tiny bit of movement might be all that's needed, a shift in position, or maybe the weight of mums reassuring hand on his chest, or a shushhhh sound. Something slight bit not active or stimulating. The ultimate aim is that no intervention is needed.

But at other sleep cycle junctions, when for whatever reason his sleep is lighter and more disturbed - then s bit of extra help will be needed to lull back to sleep. Dummy sucking is invaluable here, because it can be done without moving baby and without stimulating baby you much.

Such lighter sleep phases can be caused by all sorts of things. Might be over tired or under tired. Might be teething pain, uncomfortable nappy, illness, hunger, thirst. It might be due to noise or light. It might be his body clock offering less pressure to sleep. There are a million reasons. But suffice yo say sometimes resettles are easy, sometimes they are hard/impossible. And the progress isn't linear, so you might do great linking cycles for ages then suddenly have a rubbish week where it all seems do much harder. Just know what to do to help baby sleep in those days when it's harder and you'll be fine.

Will I see the transition where she doesn't need the movement to link cycles? Do I keep my walks short and then watch for the lighter sleep at the 40min mark rather than walk for 2hours and keep her asleep the whole time?

Actual walking isn't ideal for teaching her to link sleep cycles. It would be better to get her used to stationary back and forth pushing on the spot. In your backyard of you feel fresh air helps. Otherwise indoors.

The reason for this is to manage the process of gradually reducing the tempo and duration of movement needed. For example:

• when over tired and sleep deprived baby is likely to need constant movement in order to get to sleep, stay asleep, and resettle between sleep cycles.
• As baby us sleeping longer and more frequently, so is less sleep deprived, you can start to reduce dependant on movement:
• Movement needed at start of nap until in a deep sleep, then slowed and stopped. Then restarted between sleep cycle and kept going for longer into second sleep cycle to keep asleep
• Movement needed only for 5 mins or so to get to sleep sleep initially. Then stop. Then restart between sleep cycles and slow nd stop once into deep sleep again.
• Slower tempo movement for first 5 mins, then stop. As minimum as postie movement between cycles, then stop.
• Just three or four bounces (or pushes) and then slow and still to go to sleep. Likewise between cycles. Stationary as much as possible.
• Just three or four bounces and dummy, then still and just dummy suck to sleep. Hopefully by now minimal or no help needed at all between sleep cycles.
• Into bouncer/pushchair and just given dummy without movement needed. Or very little only if upset.
• now ready for cot naps.

I have a 5 month old too. She too will only nap when held or in the sling but that works fine for me as I have a toddler so she usually sleeps while I’m out at the park with him. Problem is she also cosleeps and I want to get her into her cot...how do I do this? She feeds to sleep atm so I’m really starting from scratch

This could probably do with your own thread.

The advice for you will be different to the others on this thread because what you're doing is called Attachment Parenting. It's almost the opposite of independent sleep in that you encourage baby to take all their comfort from you (held in a sling, cosleeping, breastfeeding to sleep).

There's nothing wrong in doing that, so don't let anyone suggest there is. But baby is not independantly sleep and - importantly in terms of your question - likely could not independently sleep* without (a) significant amounts if distress for you and baby. And (b) a significant change in your parenting philosophy.

• when I say "Could not independently sleep" I should quantify that by adding "quickly" or "any time soon". Children who are attachment parented do become independant sleepers, but on a much longer time frame of months and years, not weeks and months.

So your answer might actually involve me resetting some unrealistic expectations. Either that or councilling if you really could cope with the levels of upset and extreme distress sleep training will cause in your family.

well he slept for 1 hour 5 minutes in the bouncer. First half an hour he was startling awake every couple of minutes so I’m not sure if that counts? Then he slept soundly for the next 35 minutes, one sleep cycle I’m guessing

That's great!

I'd imagine that he was sleeping lightly for the first half hour. This is to be expected when sleep deprived and over tired, it makes sleep restless and it's more difficult to get into a deep sleep.

The more sleep he gets, the easier it is to sleep.

@FATEdestiny I’m going to try again this morning with his first nap. I usually aim for an hour so if he can get that whilst in the bouncer then I can keep practising every day and hopefully get him to the stage of sleeping through cycles without movement.

I think he’s just in a cycle of being over tired at the moment. His nights have improved significantly but he goes down to bed at 8, up for half hour feeding at 2ish and then will consistently wake around 6. I don’t feel like this is enough overnight sleep for him? I try after 6 to just pick up and rock him back to sleep and can usually get another hour or so but I feel like he just starts the day off being overtired as he struggles at times to make it through to his first nap. Any tips on getting him to sleep longer in the morning? Or at least till 7 without the rocking? Between 4-5.30 I can usually resettle him with dummy or patting but after this he just seems too alert and awake