what do little babies think of controlled crying?

[longlady]

"He awakes in a mindless terror of the silence, the motionlessness. He screams. He is afire from head to foot with want, with desire, with intolerable impatience. He gasps for breath and screams until his head is filled and throbbing with the sound. He screams until his chest aches, until his throat is sore. He can bear the pain no more and his sobs weaken and subside. He listens. He opens and closes his fists. He rolls his head from side to side. Nothing helps. It is unbearable. He begins to cry again, but it is too much for his strained throat; he soon stops. He waves his hands and kicks his feet. He stops, able to suffer, unable to think, unable to hope. Then he falls asleep again." I think this description from Jean Liedloff is very convincing and very heartbreaking. Babies cannot know that their parents are in the next room.

systemsaddict - I really liked your post.
I don't think anyone does CC lightly, or out of a desire to get a child sleeping through before that child is ready.

I did cc for 2 reasons. Firstly, I was becoming a tired, resentful, snappy and boring mum, which wasn't doing my dd any favours. Secondly, I was returning to work, and knew that it would be nigh on impossible for my DD to settle to sleep with any carer with more than one charge, as it took hours! I didn't want her going through her days being tired and irritable because she couldn't nap at CM/nursery.

I know CC isn't for every mother, or every child. I wouldn't recommend it to others willy-nilly (though am happy to answer questions). But, in my house, we are all happier for it.

Oh, and that cortisol business. My DD had colic. She cried, uncontrollably, for 3 hours nightly, night after night, for 3 months. Much more than the longest crying spell of an hour when we did CC.

Sorry if I offended, I was just making a suggestion which worked for me and might work for someone else, possibly...as I said below in my other post, I know not all babies are the same, important thing is whatever you do you are all happy

completely agree with your post twinkly. have co-slept for varying lengths of time with all of mine.

Message withdrawn

Just catching up on this thread..
and giving the fish a big iCuddle.
Love your blog

ofgs.

what do big babies think of controlled crying though?

and what do they think of not being allowed to wander around outside on their own? only ds's screams when not immediately attended to in the night don't actually sound as bad as those when we shut the door.

"he looks with fierce, painful longing at the freedom of the outside world as they cruelly close the huge door. the click of the door booms in his tiny ears, and it feels as if his little world is about to implode. he slumps to the floor, clasping his fists with the utter hopelessness of it all. it is unbearable. he screams with a piercing scream that echoes around the room and around the forbidden front garden and the beckoning street beyond. he stops. he draws breath and then screams as if his whole little life depended on it. he stamps his feet. nothing helps. in his mind he has been abandoned and he screams with his whole being, unable to think, unable to cope. .."

SP, which Amazonian tribe did you observe? LOL

systemaddict, your post was truly moving.
My wife had to make a similar journey and it was hard.

I have to add that we implemented all the Pantley advice
we found on MN (never bought the book but followed the
brilliant NCSS support thread instead) which helped in the
sense that it is perfect preparation for 'proper' sleep-training.

Twinkly, no offence taken, we also co-slept successfully for the
first 3-4 months (and will do again!) but then it got a bit
ridiculous with dd waking up 5-8 times for a quick bf to resettle
herself.

UrbanD, we did CC at 4 months for settling her at 7pm.
We would then take her into bed with us at 1am for another feed
and co-sleep rest of the night. When she was 7 months she was down
to 2 night feeds which we cut out with the aid of CC.

For all those kind MNer who have promised to put
me out of my misery by finding the precise
reference to Dr. Ferber's sensational U-turn,
I will put my neck on the line to make it more interesting:

I don't believe Dr. Ferber changed his stance.
In his book there is no reference to 'safe age for CC'.
I think someone on MN made it up.
There is no 'safe age limit' for CC because CC is inherently safe.

The people who think that CC is damaging actually
argue that any kind of sleeptraining at any age is damaging.
Unfortunately, they have neither got the money nor the
paediatric qualifications to conduct relevant research.

The emphasis is on 'relevant' which brings me to your posts, seeker.
I hope you don't think me rude if I answer tomorrow night.

DaddyJ - I can find plenty of references to 6 months: here "The idea, for babies 6 months and older..." here, "However, Dr. Ferber offers a more structured plan for babies who are six months or older,' and here it says 4-6 months, "usually sometime between 4 and 6 months of age."

i'm waiting for the person who told me about him saying the 12 months thing to get back to me. as i mentioned earlier, it's only anecdotal, so i'm not sure if there is an actual quote to be had, but i'll keep looking for you!

I want to kjnow what i'm meant to do in the day. my dd has a very hard time falling asleep. today, i have tried rocking, feeding, a dummy - everything. She is exhausted. I know this because she started off yawning and rubbing her eyes and is now gouging at them. She is crying with frustration. I have lefte her in her cot to cry for a few minutes (she is 5 months + 3 weeks) as any more handling of her is overstimulating her even more.

What magic trick should I do next? How shall I stop her crying? I am not making her cry, and she was doing it in my presence as much as out of it - she is tired to the point where nothing I do is comforting her, only winding her up more.

Threads like this really hack me off. I hate when people assume that stuff that worked for them will work for everyone, cos, natch all babies are the same.

I never realised how smug and judgy some people are, until I had a child. they should give out t-shirts at every birth to every new mum saying - 'I am a feckless piece of crap - please spit on me, my choices, and my parenting skills.' Or perhaps they should just tattoo it on our foreheads.

As for those people who can remember crying for mummy at the tender age of whatever and who are now traumatised, get over yourselves. If this is your idea of neglect, or abuse, you should thank your lucky stars that you have no real idea of how terrible either of these things truly are.

chibi - have you got room to put her in her buggy and rock her gently? or take her out for a walk? both work well for us.

Thanks UD, but I also do these things - she still will cry herself to sleep. I have come to the conclusion that she will often cry before sleep - the only time she doesn't is while feeding to sleep. This isn't always possible however.

I am coming to terms with the crying. I don't abandon her to it, but having seen her cry to sleep with me there + without I am a lot less stressed about it. I think it is a phase of going to sleep that she often needs to go through.

I have also found that attempting to soothe her by handling her very often 'rewinds' her and we end up having to replay the previous 5 minutes of crying + more all over again.

hi chibi, have you tried wheeling your dd to sleep in a buggy. If I can be bothered, I go out. If not, I just wheel ds around in the kitchen. Does the trick.

You must hate me now because I am assuming that what worked for me must work for you!

But I come with excellent credentials. Have had 2 non-self-soothing, non-sleeping dcs, who only wind themselves up, never down. Ds rarely sleeps for more than an hour's stretch at night ...

Buggy is good because it minimises handling but has all the soothing motions. Good luck. It will come.

did you read systemsaddict's post further down? it made a lot of sense to me - and now you mention it, ds went through a phase of crying him of to sleep at around that age too! have you got any medised?

chibi, x-posted with you and UrbanDryad. If your dd only needs a few minutes to cry to sleep, heck, I don't even see that as cc. I don't see that as a problem at all.

Carry on.

chibi: ds1 was exactly like that, and always would cry (but then I don't think that cc is so very damaging). you can help a bit by timing naps better - just before she starts yawning and rubbing her eyes is better (but obviously that's difficult). but you're right: handling babies can just wind them up.

i don't think CC, done properly and with a baby over 6 months (sorry DaddyJ!) is a bad thing. leaving a tiny baby to CIO a la Claire verity is A Bad Thing.

Thanks SP - you are right about the naps. We were on a fairly good + consistent schedule which dd has just revised as a result of changes to her night time sleeping. At the moment I am trying to go with the flow during the day and try and spot any patterns as they develop. I do try and put her down as soon as she seems tired, it will often still lead to drama despite my best efforts!

We did do a sort of cc at night last week after ages of her waking up every hour, and only going back to sleep if bf. We tried all sorts and only wanted to use cc as a last resort. Eventually, it was just that - the last thing standing between us and the brink. She is sleeping much better now, up only once during the night for a proper feed.

Invariably as parents I think we are bound to fail at something, at some point - to do things less well than we could have. I know looking back over my own upbringing, this is certainly the case. However, as an adult, I can recognise that my parents did the best they could, despite some frequently challenging circumstances. In light of this is seems churlish and childish to resent my parents for not having been perfect. I would hope that my dd feels the same about me when she is an adult too.

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Hi chibi, I am certainly much more forgiving and understanding of my parents since I had my son!!

On naps, ds still often cries for a few minutes when I put him down for a nap. If I have misjudged it and he isn't tired enough to sleep, he will soon get bored of crying and start talking to his stuffed animals. I give him ten minutes or so of that and then go and get him up again for a while. If he is tired, he may well cry harder to start off with, but then goes off to sleep. Eg on Saturday afternoon he cried absolutely heartrendingly for 4 minutes, went to sleep and slept for 2 3/4 hours - the heartrending crying was because he was so exhausted and he woke up his usual happy smily self.

When he is like that I really do feel that he needs me to leave him to 'cry himself down' for a little while - my presence in the room keeps him awake, and it's much kinder to let him get off to sleep with a few minutes' crying than it is to try and soothe him unsuccessfully. I find it very hard at times but always look at my watch when I put him down and set a time limit by when I will go and get him. By ten minutes it is clear whether he will sleep or not, and he very, very rarely cries for that long, it's either crying for a minute or two then asleep, or crying for a minute or two then playing. (Or of course just going to sleep without crying, which he does about half the time now.)

Well I'm nearly a CC convert. 1st night it took over an hour, second night 35 mins, 3rd night 15 mins and tonight about 3!!! Can I ask some advice about middle of the night and day naps please? Do I need to do CC at every sleep for it to always work in the long run? I tried it in the middle of the night last night three times and today for naps and it was a bit of a nightmare! and I am sooo tired!

Also when he can finally settle himself properly, if he is poorly and I bring him into bed and cuddle him to sleep for a few nights, will it undo all the good work and we'll have to start from scratch?

Chibi - PMSL where can I get one of those t-shirts!!!!

hey spotty, your bloody post was the one that forced me into
this godforsaken thread in the first place so
I am really chuffed it seems to be working for you and ds!!

If you have the energy, yes, do CC during the night
and finish the job now. If not, don't worry we did it
in phases, it works equally well.

Based on our experience I would leave the daytime naps for now,
give yourself and your boy a break during the day until the nights have fallen into place.

Re final question: you will have to reinforce the message after
illness and anything that disrupts his normal sleep routine
but it's nowhere near as bad as the first time and you
certainly won't be starting from scratch!

Now let's catch up on the rest of the thread..

seeker, the problem with the quote from bawlingbabes
is that none of the statements are actually relevant
to CC sleeptraining.
They all apply to systematic and chronic abuse/neglect.

Your comments on that post underscore what I said before,
in fact we seem to agree:
there is no scientific debate here, it's a belief/religious debate.

Can you at least prove that CC can be dangerous?
Have you got any studies that show the damage?
Or would you again say that we will never know?

If you don't trust mothers to give paediatricans an accurate
impression of how well their babies are doing, well, I respect your beliefs,
but I personally trust mothers above all other 'experts'.
That's why I like Mumsnet

And that's why I think the studies are hugely reassuring,
much more so than abstract cortisol studies using rats.

UrbanD! I agree with you so much so that I have posted
those Ferber links myself once upon a time on MN

My point (and beef) is this though:
Yes, CC is recommended from 3-6 months but
NOT because it is 'dangerous' or 'unsafe' before that.

Thanks Daddy J. (and sorry too )