8m sleep “regression”

[Rachey22]

Hi - looking for some help everyone.

My DD is 8m old and has started waking 2 plus times a night. I am convinced this is for comfort as happens same time each night roughly from 10/11pm onwards.

She falls asleep on her own for naps and sometimes before bed although I keep getting wake windows wrong at end of the day and she’s too tired and falls asleep on boob or is SUPER drowsy before she goes down that there is no effort from her to sleep.

She used to sleep ok until 6ish months only woke once and would sleep through one night a week or so. I probably had more energy back then but 8m in, I am knackered and it’s getting worse.

Would you sleep train (controlled crying or some other form of sleep training) whilst going through a regression or would you just do what u gotta do to get through it and try sort it out at the other side?

I’ve been pretty anti sleep training until this point but my ability to function is dwindling and I feel myself getting angry all the time because I’m so tired and it makes me feel worse and not the person / mum I want to be.

Please no comments like “she’s a baby - what do you expect” or any anti sleep training propaganda. I am fragile and it’s not the thing I want or need to read right now.

Thank you!!!

Is she night weaned? That needs to be the first step.

We had this from the day baby was 8 months. He had been sleeping through prior to that after falling asleep on me / being rocked to sleep and then put into cot.
8 month regression coincided with teething for the first week-ish. Baby would only settle if on me or being cuddled and became hysterical if put into cot. We ended up co-sleeping for about 2/3 weeks.
I had been against the idea of sleep training but we had to do something as none of us were getting a decent night's sleep. We ended up doing a kind of supportive beside the cot / cry it out method. Started a routine of chill in sitting room, get into pjs and sleeping bag, upstairs to read a book, into cot and turn off light and sit beside cot until baby settles and falls asleep with nightlight.
The first night was torture - myself and husband took it in 20 minute shifts. Baby settled after about an hour and half. By night four, he was settling within half an hour. He still cries now when put into cot but settles quickly - 20 minutes tonight. It's hard but his crying isn't a distressed cry - it's more of a "Mammy, pick me up" cry.
Best of luck with whatever you try.

Thanks for replying @FATEdestiny. No, she hasn’t yet.

She never feeds for more than 10 mins at night. I’ve tried to gradually reduce it over the last week to 6 mins or less but she won’t settle the same unless she’s had about 10 mins.

She doesn’t eat much during the day in terms of solids. 2x meals and diet very limited as she has a few allergies so it’s a slow process finding safe foods.

Any tips for night weaning? Cold turkey or gradual approach?

Thanks for replying @dumpling123. Why do these things always come at once.

I’m not too adverse to co sleeping but DD doesn’t like it one bit. I thought all babies would relish that opp lol.

Glad you’re nights are getting better. I know the cry you mean; it almost sounds like “muuuummmmmm”. I do keep hearing the first few nights are brutal but it can get better quickly. I’m just not built for it but I guess I need to think about the long term and not just what’s easier in the moment!

@Rachey22

Thanks for replying *@FATEdestiny*. No, she hasn’t yet.

She never feeds for more than 10 mins at night. I’ve tried to gradually reduce it over the last week to 6 mins or less but she won’t settle the same unless she’s had about 10 mins.

She doesn’t eat much during the day in terms of solids. 2x meals and diet very limited as she has a few allergies so it’s a slow process finding safe foods.

Any tips for night weaning? Cold turkey or gradual approach?

It's a chicken and egg situation. While she is having calories in the night she will need less in the daytime. So the debate becomes that it's necessary to reduce night feeds (While she's genuinely hungry) in order to move that hunger to the daytime do that she has mire calories through the day. For example a big, nutritious and calorie heavy breakfast upon waking after no night feeds. Plus extra daytime breastfeeds.

I would begin by having different ways to resettle baby in the night that do not involve feeding.

Also completely seperate feeding and sleeping at bedtime and naptime.

At bedtime, feed at the beginning of bedtime routine not the end. For example bedtime feed downstairs in sofa, then up for a bath, teeth brush, song / story / whatever then bed.

For daytime naps, feed when baby wakes up from a nap, so put down for a sleep without any feeding.

Thanks. That makes sense actually that she’s probably not hungry in the day given all the night feeds...!!

In terms of resettling in other ways, she would happily fall asleep cuddled into me on the rocking chair but unless she’s in a deep sleep when I put her down, she will wake up immediately. Would you say that it’s ok to put her down in a deep sleep for a while just to get over the no feeding or should I be aiming to put her down drowsy from the get go?

Whilst I’ve got you, I am wondering if overtiredness is also playing it’s part. I’ve been trying to work towards the 2,3,4 routine but she wakes up crying 30 mins after the second nap suggesting 3 hours window is too long. For the bedtime wake window I just keep getting it wrong, I’m either too early or too late. I noticed on a historic thread that you said 2,3,4 might not really work until baby is sleeping better through the night or around 11 hours. Is that still the case in your view?

Would it ever be ok to offer a third power nap if other day time sleep is poor or I need to bridge the gap between bedtime at her age? If so, what is the latest you would offer a nap and adjust bedtime to?

Thanks for answering my numerous questions. I feel like you are the fairy godmother (or godfather, godperson) of these sleep threads!!

Baby isn't ready for 2- nap days until daytime naps consistantly link sleep cycles. This means a minimum of 90 minute naps, before baby is ready for 2-nap days.

Yours sounds like baby definately needs a third nap. Possibly still needs a fourth or fifth nap! Until naps are over 90 minutes instead of working to 234, worth to double nap length. By that I mean:

Your awake window between naps wants to be around double the nap length, plus or minus 15 minutes. And have 2h awake time as your maximum.

So for example after a 30 minute nap, I'd expect 1h awake time. After a 1h minute nap, 2h awake time. After a 1h15m nap, maintain the 2h max awake time.

If you work out your days once you get to consistent 60-90m naps and 2h awake windows, you've by that point naturally stretched to 3- nap days just through natural sleep progression: (7am wake, 9-10am nap, 12-2pm nap, 4-5/6pm nap, 8pm bed). It's at this point you start limiting the third nap and pushing awake times to 234 ready for 2- nap days.

If you are still getting 30 minute naps then limit your awake time to 2h maximum, ideally closer to 1h, or baby will get over tired and this creates it's own problems.

You would be better focusing on settling method and independently going to sleep, ratger than pushing awake windows too much.

Would you say that it’s ok to put her down in a deep sleep for a while just to get over the no feeding or should I be aiming to put her down drowsy from the get go?

Really depends on what you can cope with.

If I speak purely for the wellbeing of baby only (and it is a much more complex issue than that realistically) them your baby would be better learning yo feel comforted and content when going to sleep independently in the cot. Baby can then resettle back to sleep more easily in the night, it will solve night weaning, which will improve weaning and daytime feeding, it will also improve daytime napping, which will give a well rested baby who's less agitated anyway to finds it easier to relax and go to sleep.

However....

It's a big however. Your well being counts too. The sleep training needed to get to that point is likely to be distressing for you and distressing for baby. It needs A LOT of emotional resilience from you to cope with doing it. Because half-ass won't cut it. You have to be consistent. Half-doing it only creates more stress.

I'm not one for suggesting leaving baby to cry alone. I think baby needs Mum there comforting and caring at all times through the upset. But actually being there and witnessing your baby being distressed is hard, harder than closing the door on it for a few minutes (a la Controlled Crying).

And I understand completely that sleep deprived Mum's who breastfeed and are exhausted just to not have the energy to cope with that. The addage You cannot fill others cups when yours is empty comes to mind.

Back to your question:
It is ok to put her down in a deep sleep after rocking instead of feeding to sleep. Of course it is. You dont need anyone's permission to decide you can't cope with more than that right now.

The ultimate aim isn't to put her down drowsy. It's to put her down fully and wide awake, and for her to go from awake through to dowsey through to asleep all in the cot. That will be hard going though.

Wow thanks so much for your detailed response!

I should have said that her morning nap is pretty consistently 90 mins, sometimes slightly less but never more. That is why I thought I could stretch her onto 2,3,4 but that 3 window still seems too long. I reduced the window yesterday on your suggestion as she slept 1 hour 20 in the morning so put her down around 2 hours 40 later and she managed to sleep the full hour but she still cried on waking and I feel was still tired. She took a third nap yesterday too. Would I still be best keeping to Max 2 hours and stretching it from there gradually?

I tried a few of the settling methods you suggested last night and she went down with a bit of protest without a feed after bath (I fed before bath) but did settle after about 20 mins. She did wake an hour ish later and after some
crying and reassuring she settled again and then only woke once in the night for a feed. I was far too tired to battle it out without a feed then but it’s enough progress to give me motivation to try tonight and see this through.

Thanks I probably needed the reminder about myself. I’m going to try and prioritise my own rest too and and catch up on some sleep during the day when she does nap so that my own sleep tank is as full as possible.

@FATEdestiny hello! I’m after some words of guidance again if you have a spare moment?

I think I’ve made some progress in a way - moved feeding to before bath and separating that feeding to drowsy / almost asleep association entirely, I’ve managed to stop the feed before midnight and settle her with a stay in room approach and she’s settling v well for naps 1 and 2 and for the most part at bedtime now as well. Also semi success with your wake window approach based on nap duration.

I’m still having an issue with lack of consistency though I guess? The third nap is a real beast. It falls really late into the day and it almost feels like it’s not worth the battle and instead easier to push for an early bedtime? Another point I’m sticking at is awake time after this elusive last nap and bedtime!

Although I’ve cut the 11pm ish feed; she continues to wake then and then once more through the night if I’m lucky. Through the night I try to resettle using stay in room but if after 40 mins or so it hasn’t worked, I resort to a feed thinking it must be hunger.

I just wondered if I’m cutting the right feed first or should I feed at 11 in the hope that will help her sleep through? I wanted to focus on this one first so she had a long stretch of sleep and at least I could get an early night in prep for waking up later on...atm I just can’t get a solid stretch of sleep at all!

Since I last posted she has been rolling back and forth and sleeping more on side or tummy but when she wakes through the night it seems to be firstly because she’s frustrated with that and roaming around the cot crying. Maybe part of all this is development changes but it’s been going on for almost 3 months now that I just have no idea.

Sorry for the waffle. I have no idea if I’m even making any sense I’m so tired and have tried to write this down 3x now.

Third nap is always had work. Even with the best sleepers still need loads of hard work to get that third nap. It's usual to have the third nap on the move (pushchair) in order to help it along.

If it's getting too late though, you can miss it for the day and make bedtime earlier. This would probably be because the two previous naps needed to be earlier if they are still short naps.

As for the night feed, I'd personally cut both at the same time and get the whole night weaning done in one go. But if you want to just drop one, then it doesn't matter which really, just do whichever is easiest for you.