18 month early waking

[Sillymummies123]

Hi all

I should preface this by saying I am very fortunate. DS sleeps soundly from bedtime to morning, but the morning has over the past few weeks crept an hour earlier and I’m absolutely losing my mind.

Toddler starts stories and milk at about 18:30, in bed at around 18:50 and grizzling but then asleep at 19:00.

Fast forward -> crying starts at 05:15. I don’t think he’s fully awake but it’s constant. I don’t go in until at least 6 but I am also wide awake because he’s half asleep crying, and then eventually Awake crying.

I’m pregnant and I’m struggling. Please tell me how to get him to sleep longer / long enough.

You need to start by being kind to yourself. Parenting is tough and there are plenty people who find the early years the toughest. Even if you love it, it's a long hard slog at times and it feels relentless. This bit is so hard as they don't have enough words to explain things to you yet.

But I promise you it changes. Every stage is different and has its own challenges but the later ones come with much more sleep which does help. We were just through that tunnel and into the land of being able to sit (and relax) in hotel bars in the evening, for example, with our older two on holiday and actually enjoy it. Then we had number 3 and, lockdown aside, any visit to a cafe/restaurant is now planned with military precision and we have to consider the toddler's tolerance and the others around us.😂🙈

If I were you I'd chat with your midwife if you can. I have found them tremendously supportive antenatally. And it's OK to ask for support from others too when it's hard. You don't sound bitchy to me, you sound desperate and I remember how that feels all too well. Lockdown won't be helping either.

Babies follow the teaching they receive.

^^

😂

Your toddler is gonna have a fucking RIOT with you

I think there's something called wake to sleep, you have to slightly disturb them about an hour ( I think) before the early wake and it sends them back into another sleep cycle. Obviously will involve you getting up to pre empt a few times but worth it. Good luck, I've been there with early risers!

I'm a sleep consultant (and long time poster on Mumsnet sleep board). Lots of things at play here...

• You mention baby self settling at night, but you have not yet nailed self settling otherwise daytime naps would be easier. I would suggest baby settles at night due to total exhaustion rather than a feeling of soothing oneself. So more work needed to help your baby feel soothed and comforted to sleep so that this works in the daytime.

• Normal night time sleep averages at 11h and the range of 10h-12h over night sleep are all considered normal. So a 7pm bedtime will reasonably give you a 5am bedtime and that just be that baby has enough night sleep (the grumpiness is not enough sleep over 24h, not enough daytime sleep).

• The bottom line to solving your morning wake up being so early is later bedtime. I'd suggest an 8.30pm bedtime which gives a morning wake up from 6.30am to 8.30am (probably somewhere around 7.30am).

• But your big issue with poor daytime sleep means that later bedtime is not an easy feat to manage. So while the title of your thread centres around early waking. I would in fact say that your central issue is poor daytime sleep and poor self-settling for daytime sleep. If you solved this then baby would be less grumpy overall and be more able to stay up until later.

Daytime Sleep

I'd start off with 2-nap days in order to establish a later bedtime. Give it 3 weeks at least before considering if ready to start transitioning to 1-nap days.

You mention morning nap being easier (?). So do a 9am nap. You want this nap being 45 min minimum but anything up to 2h would be OK. If you get these in the cot, great. If not, see below.

I'd then do an afternoon nap starting between 1pm and 2pm. Basically as soon as any grumpiness starts. You say this nap is hard work - last naps of the day often are. You need to work harder to get this nap. The easiest suggestion would be a non-stop pushchair walk. You could also try pushing back and forth on the spot at home with the nap in the pushchair, but dont stop. You need to plan in 2 hours of continuous movement.

This extra help is needed because your baby hasn't learnt to self settle well enough to be able to go to sleep when "just tired" and will only go to sleep when completely exhausted. In short that hasn't actually learnt self settling.

Other ways you can give extra help:

• Movement - holding and rocking in arms, holding in a rocking chair, bouncing on a birthing ball, using a baby bouncer (18m too old for this tho)
• Sucking - Dummy, feeding to sleep, breastfeeding comfort feeds. Dummy can be sucked while in the cot. But feeding to sleep means the issue of not being able to move baby after going to sleep, so nap ends up being in your arms.
• Physical Contact - Cosleeping in your bed, using a sidecar cot and cuddling into baby in there, hands staying on baby to go to sleep, cheek-to-cheek shushing, patting. Using physical contact like shushing and patting is often the last step to independent settling and rarely helps as a first step.

I could do with more details to be able to help. Primarily what happens to get baby to sleep at bedtime, for daytime naps and during the times when daytime naps are refused? Also what current daytime sleep and feed schedule is.

@FATEdestiny

I'm a sleep consultant (and long time poster on Mumsnet sleep board). Lots of things at play here...

• You mention baby self settling at night, but you have not yet nailed self settling otherwise daytime naps would be easier. I would suggest baby settles at night due to total exhaustion rather than a feeling of soothing oneself. So more work needed to help your baby feel soothed and comforted to sleep so that this works in the daytime.

• Normal night time sleep averages at 11h and the range of 10h-12h over night sleep are all considered normal. So a 7pm bedtime will reasonably give you a 5am bedtime and that just be that baby has enough night sleep (the grumpiness is not enough sleep over 24h, not enough daytime sleep).

• The bottom line to solving your morning wake up being so early is later bedtime. I'd suggest an 8.30pm bedtime which gives a morning wake up from 6.30am to 8.30am (probably somewhere around 7.30am).

• But your big issue with poor daytime sleep means that later bedtime is not an easy feat to manage. So while the title of your thread centres around early waking. I would in fact say that your central issue is poor daytime sleep and poor self-settling for daytime sleep. If you solved this then baby would be less grumpy overall and be more able to stay up until later.

Daytime Sleep

I'd start off with 2-nap days in order to establish a later bedtime. Give it 3 weeks at least before considering if ready to start transitioning to 1-nap days.

You mention morning nap being easier (?). So do a 9am nap. You want this nap being 45 min minimum but anything up to 2h would be OK. If you get these in the cot, great. If not, see below.

I'd then do an afternoon nap starting between 1pm and 2pm. Basically as soon as any grumpiness starts. You say this nap is hard work - last naps of the day often are. You need to work harder to get this nap. The easiest suggestion would be a non-stop pushchair walk. You could also try pushing back and forth on the spot at home with the nap in the pushchair, but dont stop. You need to plan in 2 hours of continuous movement.

This extra help is needed because your baby hasn't learnt to self settle well enough to be able to go to sleep when "just tired" and will only go to sleep when completely exhausted. In short that hasn't actually learnt self settling.

Other ways you can give extra help:

• Movement - holding and rocking in arms, holding in a rocking chair, bouncing on a birthing ball, using a baby bouncer (18m too old for this tho)
• Sucking - Dummy, feeding to sleep, breastfeeding comfort feeds. Dummy can be sucked while in the cot. But feeding to sleep means the issue of not being able to move baby after going to sleep, so nap ends up being in your arms.
• Physical Contact - Cosleeping in your bed, using a sidecar cot and cuddling into baby in there, hands staying on baby to go to sleep, cheek-to-cheek shushing, patting. Using physical contact like shushing and patting is often the last step to independent settling and rarely helps as a first step.

I could do with more details to be able to help. Primarily what happens to get baby to sleep at bedtime, for daytime naps and during the times when daytime naps are refused? Also what current daytime sleep and feed schedule is.

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. Will supply the requested deets. Again, though, happy to have early wake up if the baby is rested so am not worried about a later bedtime (I only enjoy life /do the basic maintenance (cleaning, working, laundry, washing) post 19:30, really).

• Sleep schedule is fairly fixed: up between 5 and 6. Some mornings are worse than others - if he’s shattered we may do an emergency 09:00 nap, but most times he’s just visibly tired and we can make it through to 12-1 when he will take a nap between 30 minutes and 2 hours, average varies from an hour to 1.5 hours).

Naps are generally accepted at 12-1 UNLESS he has slept AT ALL beforehand - and I literally mean ten minutes in the car on the way back from an appointment or the park. We go through bouts of 30 minute wakes and horrible tiredness - in which case, as above, he won’t go back to sleep at all for the rest of the day.

For both nap and night, he has stories, milk and then is put into his cot in a darkened room with a white noise machine. He generally sleeps instantly. We ferbered about 6 months ago and he has been fairly happy to sleep since - only not in the daytime if he’s had a little ‘reset’ nap of five minutes or so.

To my understanding this seems just slightly below average, but as you say in line with the normal range, which is why I am at a loss with the 4/7 days where he is inconsolable and behaves for the entire morning as though he’s had no sleep.

He’s a preemie and did have BPD, and so I’ve wondered about apnoea etc but he has plenty of sleep studies when he was about half the mass he is now and was fine.

@unexpectedthird

You need to start by being kind to yourself. Parenting is tough and there are plenty people who find the early years the toughest. Even if you love it, it's a long hard slog at times and it feels relentless. This bit is so hard as they don't have enough words to explain things to you yet.

But I promise you it changes. Every stage is different and has its own challenges but the later ones come with much more sleep which does help. We were just through that tunnel and into the land of being able to sit (and relax) in hotel bars in the evening, for example, with our older two on holiday and actually enjoy it. Then we had number 3 and, lockdown aside, any visit to a cafe/restaurant is now planned with military precision and we have to consider the toddler's tolerance and the others around us.😂🙈

If I were you I'd chat with your midwife if you can. I have found them tremendously supportive antenatally. And it's OK to ask for support from others too when it's hard. You don't sound bitchy to me, you sound desperate and I remember how that feels all too well. Lockdown won't be helping either.

Thank you, you are an exceptionally kind person. It’s rare.

I don’t think a complete lack of experience with children of pre-school age (no siblings or relatives and when i saw friends with babies they tended to have a babysitter booked) + lockdown has helped my understanding of ‘normal’ and how much I should be enjoying this because beside the odd play / giggle, I’m mostly resenting my life these days. It’s not DS fault, but I’m not maternal and although I’ve worked with children, I’ve never really known anything pre-7 y/o and it is completely not what I would ever have knowingly chosen to do yet. I’m hoping that if I can crack this (literally, at times, spending all his pre-nap time from waking in a ball on the floor, glassy eyed, zoning out, falling asleep in high chair etc) I can at least have SOME better days with him.

We ferbered about 6 months ago

I suspected so. This is a very typical response from a Ferbered baby. Im actually not a fan in most circumstances, because while it gives very quick results (in terms of going to sleep) it doesn't actually teach baby anything. So you just push the problems elsewhere.

You baby hasn't learnt how to go to sleep in a healthy way. He has learnt to zone out when he is completely exhausted.

Think about yourself in terms of healthy sleep - going to sleep when utterly exhausted is not the normal way to go to sleep. We should go to sleep as we get tired. But the time between just starting to get tired until you might describe yourself as "very tired" is about 2 hours or so. The time through to total exhaustion cannot stay awake any longer, in an adult, might be 4 hours from when you first got tired.

In a child/toddler, the time from DC being at the Just Got Tired point until the Very Tired point is about an hour. The "tells" for being Very Tired are outward signs like eye rubbing, yawning, clingy, whining. The point from Just Got Tired right through to Completely Exhausted is 2 hours or so. The "tells" for being Completely Exhausted increase from crying to constant crying unless being help, to grumpy and not happy with anything, to screaming and thrashing around.

The right time to go to sleep is when he has Just Got Tired. This is before there are any outward signs. Some parents get used to knowing when this will be so pre-empt and go for a nap when you know he's due. But if you're not used to knowing this yet, then use ^any negative sign". This could be a single cry, an insistence to be picked up, being unwilling to play - these are all precursers for whinging, clinginess and grumpiness, but before they start.

You're issues here is that your baby has not learnt to self settle when Just Got Tired. So you need to help him.

All those things I mentioned above will help (movement, sucking, physical contact). But the fact is, just assuming he doesn't want/need to sleep because he wont go to sleep - that's untrue and the roor cause of the problem here.

He needs to go to sleep, but can't and needs your help.

All that about he won't go to sleep is he's had a morning nap - that's not him not needing to sleep. That's him not knowing how to go to sleep and needing your help.

When he wakes up grumpy. Get up, give him breakfast and milk (or whatever). If he is immediately still grumpy, then do nap time - he's tired. Don't focus on "he didn't have enough sleep at night" - because he did, he had 10 hours. Instead focus on quality daytime naps.

For now, doesn't matter if he's back having a nap at 6am after breakfast. He's chronically and long term sleep deprived and some emergency short term measures are needed to get him out of that.

For 3 weeks, focus on ANY SLEEP, ANY HOW.

• Use the pushchair for naps. Keep it moving all of the time in order to keep him asleep for as long as possible,.
• Do a morning and an afternoon nap. Yes the afternoon nap will be hard work. Getting children who dont sleep well to sleep is always hard work - so set your expectations that it will be hard work. Have lots of patience with him, and keep going. He needs the sleep, he just doesn't know how to do it.

You will almost certainly end up with difficulties going to bed at bedtime as a result of this. Because baby will now be healthy levels of tired rather than Completely Exhausted which is what Ferber sleepers need. So have a plan for how you'll give him extra help to get to sleep at night.

@FATEdestiny

We ferbered about 6 months ago

I suspected so. This is a very typical response from a Ferbered baby. Im actually not a fan in most circumstances, because while it gives very quick results (in terms of going to sleep) it doesn't actually teach baby anything. So you just push the problems elsewhere.

You baby hasn't learnt how to go to sleep in a healthy way. He has learnt to zone out when he is completely exhausted.

Think about yourself in terms of healthy sleep - going to sleep when utterly exhausted is not the normal way to go to sleep. We should go to sleep as we get tired. But the time between just starting to get tired until you might describe yourself as "very tired" is about 2 hours or so. The time through to total exhaustion cannot stay awake any longer, in an adult, might be 4 hours from when you first got tired.

In a child/toddler, the time from DC being at the Just Got Tired point until the Very Tired point is about an hour. The "tells" for being Very Tired are outward signs like eye rubbing, yawning, clingy, whining. The point from Just Got Tired right through to Completely Exhausted is 2 hours or so. The "tells" for being Completely Exhausted increase from crying to constant crying unless being help, to grumpy and not happy with anything, to screaming and thrashing around.

The right time to go to sleep is when he has Just Got Tired. This is before there are any outward signs. Some parents get used to knowing when this will be so pre-empt and go for a nap when you know he's due. But if you're not used to knowing this yet, then use ^any negative sign". This could be a single cry, an insistence to be picked up, being unwilling to play - these are all precursers for whinging, clinginess and grumpiness, but before they start.

You're issues here is that your baby has not learnt to self settle when Just Got Tired. So you need to help him.

All those things I mentioned above will help (movement, sucking, physical contact). But the fact is, just assuming he doesn't want/need to sleep because he wont go to sleep - that's untrue and the roor cause of the problem here.

He needs to go to sleep, but can't and needs your help.

All that about he won't go to sleep is he's had a morning nap - that's not him not needing to sleep. That's him not knowing how to go to sleep and needing your help.

When he wakes up grumpy. Get up, give him breakfast and milk (or whatever). If he is immediately still grumpy, then do nap time - he's tired. Don't focus on "he didn't have enough sleep at night" - because he did, he had 10 hours. Instead focus on quality daytime naps.

For now, doesn't matter if he's back having a nap at 6am after breakfast. He's chronically and long term sleep deprived and some emergency short term measures are needed to get him out of that.

For 3 weeks, focus on ANY SLEEP, ANY HOW.

• Use the pushchair for naps. Keep it moving all of the time in order to keep him asleep for as long as possible,.
• Do a morning and an afternoon nap. Yes the afternoon nap will be hard work. Getting children who dont sleep well to sleep is always hard work - so set your expectations that it will be hard work. Have lots of patience with him, and keep going. He needs the sleep, he just doesn't know how to do it.

You will almost certainly end up with difficulties going to bed at bedtime as a result of this. Because baby will now be healthy levels of tired rather than Completely Exhausted which is what Ferber sleepers need. So have a plan for how you'll give him extra help to get to sleep at night.

Thank you for your very thorough answer. We may well use your advice in the future if sleep starts to become more disrupted. Daytime routine sounds lovely but he alternates between childcare (who has openly said it’ll be one nap or nothing because she has older children who are noisy, and he wouldn’t be able to sleep) and his gran (he never sleeps there), so unfortunately I don’t see how I would practically adopt it :(

I think OH and I will have to have a chat and weigh up the grizzly mornings vs a whole other (and you seem to be indicating ‘longer’) bout of sleep training, which would likely bring much more short term disruption and fighting. We both work full time in quite challenging roles and I don’t think we can revert to sleepless nights again unless one of us is off (a la maternity leave). Perhaps I will attempt when baby number two arrives, or perhaps just take antidepressants until they’re old enough to communicate with more effectively.
Many thanks all - I think I’ll let this thread rest as I don’t think it gets more comprehensive than personalised advice from a sleep consultant.

Everybody is human and families always have their limitations in terms of practicalities. Don't worry about it.

It might be the best answer to adjust your expectations and accept the situation as it is, rather than feeling bad that you can't change things.

If one nap is the only way it can be, so be it. Just try to maximise it as much as possible.

@FATEdestiny

Everybody is human and families always have their limitations in terms of practicalities. Don't worry about it.

It might be the best answer to adjust your expectations and accept the situation as it is, rather than feeling bad that you can't change things.

If one nap is the only way it can be, so be it. Just try to maximise it as much as possible.

Thank you again. Had a bit of a meltdown when I started to think of all the months we’ve spent with all day crying and whining, and then cried because I felt it was my fault for Ferbering him :(

This resulted in a nap attempt mess. He was glassy eyed and whining (slept 1-2:30 today) and I took him to bed and shushed him / patted him while he screamed for about 30 minutes before having to get him up. He kept standing up and I kept laying him down etc. Thanks for the help everyone. I’ll just have to get on with it it seems. I’m proud of myself for many things in life, and count myself successful in enough ventures but I don’t think being a parent will ever be something I get to grips with. Saying that, love teenagers - work with them often and I’ll hopefully enjoy that part. I suppose ‘accepting 10 years of unhappiness and managing the ten after that’ is realistic management of expectations

Sillymummies123 you sound very depressed. Have you spoken to your GP about anti-depressants? I think they will help you.

Probably. This has been a theme in most conversations I’ve had about child raising. I’m not depressed at work, I’m not depressed when I go out for the evening or when his gran has him. I manage most of the time when I have him. But manage is the key word there. If I shocked someone with a handheld, gave someone who didn’t like cats an incontinent unstable feline or made someone work 24 hours a day in an industry they didn’t enjoy, I doubt they’d be particularly happy but I think that’s fairly normal. I’m not a natural parent. I don’t particularly enjoy it, so no. I’m not happy. I don’t especially like feeling like if this attitude never changes then I’ve got 18 years and I’ll be too old to live when it’s over, but I’ve had depression before and I know when I have it.

For today, I’ll settle for not damaging the child in my care with lack of sleep or making every day more of a battle than it needs to be if I can get him rested.

I am not qualified to discuss your mental health.

But I am a secondary science teacher by profession and definately prefer 14y plus teenagers to toddlers and babies, so not dissimilar to you.

But I've had 4 children. With my first I made tons of mistakes and hated life with a baby. With each baby I learnt more about babies and so now realise that while I still prefer teens (my eldest two children are 15 and 16), i can also enjoy my younger children too, and their time as babies. It was that I needed to accept my flaws and learn from my mistakes to do so.

If you think I suppose ‘accepting 10 years of unhappiness and managing the ten after that’ is realistic management of expectations is a reasonable and rational responce for you to make, then you probably don't realise or won't accept how much your mental health is suffering.

This is not a rational or logical statement to make. Do you realise this?

@FATEdestiny

I am not qualified to discuss your mental health.

But I am a secondary science teacher by profession and definately prefer 14y plus teenagers to toddlers and babies, so not dissimilar to you.

But I've had 4 children. With my first I made tons of mistakes and hated life with a baby. With each baby I learnt more about babies and so now realise that while I still prefer teens (my eldest two children are 15 and 16), i can also enjoy my younger children too, and their time as babies. It was that I needed to accept my flaws and learn from my mistakes to do so.

If you think I suppose ‘accepting 10 years of unhappiness and managing the ten after that’ is realistic management of expectations is a reasonable and rational responce for you to make, then you probably don't realise or won't accept how much your mental health is suffering.

This is not a rational or logical statement to make. Do you realise this?

Yes. Sorry. Had a bit of a wobble today. lots of other health/ historical problems with our toddler which impact on us and we both had a cry once he was in bed and a long chat. Clearly been building to it today because reading back over this thread makes me feel like a crazy person.

I am/have been ironically also a secondary science teacher. Still teach, and am really struggling with managing that while the separation anxiety is currently rearing it’s head in my child.

I feel we are making lots of mistakes, and not really having an idea of where it’s all leading yet is making it harder for sure.

Feeling really very depressed today, you are right. I don’t really think the ten year thing was reasonable - more cynical / defeated. I think I’ll enjoy it more and more as toddle begins to talk and learn. I worry I come across as extreme and attention seeking in this thread, but our mental health has taken a big flip today and what started as continued frustration with sleep problems has somewhat spiralled so apologies!

Thanks for all your help. Despite my resistance to it earlier, the ‘it’s normal and doesn’t mean he’ll be an angry, extreme child his whole life’ really DOES help. We just have no idea and no point of reference for any of it.

I feel a bit like your kin spirit.

My eldest child (daughter) is now 16. I felt I very much failed her as a baby. I was a full time secondary chemistry teacher at the time, the only chemist in department so taking all the KS4 and A Level classes. I returned from maternity leave witb DD1 when I was already pregnant with DS2 (now 15). I decided to take 1y maternity with DC2 and then work the one term necessary notice period and handed my notice in to finish 1 term after returning from maternity for DS2.

Key is:

4 years on, I had DS2 (Now 11 yo and Y6)
5 years on from this I had DD2 (10 years after my first child). She is now Y1 and 6yo.

If you'd have spoken to me in the year after my first child was born if have said I had no connection with babies (give me a teen anyday). But that was because I did not have the confidence to admit my mistakes. I expected to know everything about being a parent (I was a teacher after all!) But didn't.

Four children on, instead of claiming to understand teens, I now earn my living understanding babies, as a sleep consultant, even though my youngest is now 6yo and no longer a baby.

What I'm saying is - you have a fixed mindset.

You think you understand teens and cannot "do" babies. This isn't true. It's just that right now you don't understand babies. But if you put in some effort to learn, you can think if it as "I don't understand yet." Not that you do not understand at all.

You have some learning to do.

Learning is what you are good at. You can do this.

I haven't read all the responses so perhaps you've already said this but what are his naps like during the day? Sometimes tweaking them helps. I know a lot of people say less day sleep helps but I actually think more day sleep helps so is he having a good (long enough) nap during the day?
I've also heard of stirring to wake which is when you gently stir the baby - not enough to wake properly - whatever you think will lightly stir him (before his normal wake up time) in the hope that it helps him go back into a deeper sleep. It sounds like he's not linking that last sleep cycle.
Also - diet? Could there be any tummy issues? Problem with dairy perhaps? That could be annoying him and causing him to wake early.
Sorry if the above are things you've already tried! I'm sure you'll hear a lot of 'it's just part of having a baby' but I don't think it is. I would be expecting a good 12 (11 even) hours of sleep xx

@k2331

I haven't read all the responses so perhaps you've already said this but what are his naps like during the day? Sometimes tweaking them helps. I know a lot of people say less day sleep helps but I actually think more day sleep helps so is he having a good (long enough) nap during the day? I've also heard of stirring to wake which is when you gently stir the baby - not enough to wake properly - whatever you think will lightly stir him (before his normal wake up time) in the hope that it helps him go back into a deeper sleep. It sounds like he's not linking that last sleep cycle. Also - diet? Could there be any tummy issues? Problem with dairy perhaps? That could be annoying him and causing him to wake early. Sorry if the above are things you've already tried! I'm sure you'll hear a lot of 'it's just part of having a baby' but I don't think it is. I would be expecting a good 12 (11 even) hours of sleep xx

Fully agree. Another train wreck today. 7 minutes of sleep at 09:00 has meant a failed nap that we tried to get him on board with for an hour. Another day in paradise. This’ll be it for us Until 7pm

@Sillymummies123 ugh it's so so tough. Ok so this mornings nap didn't go to plan, that's ok. I gave up on morning naps earlier than most because I found it the hardest. Maybe try putting him down after lunch and see what he does when you leave him - for however long you're comfortable with of course. It sounds like he is overtired (through no fault of yours!!). Either he's got himself into a bad habit he needs to break or there's something going on. Maybe a sore tummy, does he eat a lot of diary or soy? Does your house get cold at that time of the morning - if so, does he sleep with socks on? I know you must be so tired and fed up so I don't want to keep saying things you probably already know and have tried. The other thing I can think of is an earlier bedtime - even 6/6.15. It might help if he is overtired. These phases are so hard, I hope you are ok - please be kind to yourself xx

If you Ferbered before, can you not do the same to get him sleeping in the afternoons?

[quote k2331]@Sillymummies123 ugh it's so so tough. Ok so this mornings nap didn't go to plan, that's ok. I gave up on morning naps earlier than most because I found it the hardest. Maybe try putting him down after lunch and see what he does when you leave him - for however long you're comfortable with of course. It sounds like he is overtired (through no fault of yours!!). Either he's got himself into a bad habit he needs to break or there's something going on. Maybe a sore tummy, does he eat a lot of diary or soy? Does your house get cold at that time of the morning - if so, does he sleep with socks on? I know you must be so tired and fed up so I don't want to keep saying things you probably already know and have tried. The other thing I can think of is an earlier bedtime - even 6/6.15. It might help if he is overtired. These phases are so hard, I hope you are ok - please be kind to yourself xx [/quote]
Yeah... we’ve just found that naps are very ‘blink and you miss em’. I’m sure we’re doing it all wrong etc, and we’ve had some very helpful advice above but with every attempt to cuddle and sooth, we’re hysterically batted away, with every attempt to Pat/ shush we seem to be waking him up. We tried to Ferber earlier for the hour. No joy.

@FATEdestiny

If you Ferbered before, can you not do the same to get him sleeping in the afternoons?

Never has, and I don’t think ever WILL work for his naps. As I’ve said - he will only take one nap a day regardless of length (sometimes he will in car, but we can’t afford petrol for that nonsense). We are doing it as we speak. What we end up with (and we’ve tried an hour and a half before) is a red faced, glassy eyed toddler hanging over the rail of his cot (arms only - hasn’t attempted climbing and I don’t think he could). I would describe his entire personality as ‘averse to everything offered / suggested’ and I don’t think sleep is an exception. He sleeps when he wants to, not when he needs to

He sleeps when he wants to, not when he needs to

You could change that.

This is not a fixed state that cannot change. I suspect your low mental health (in respect to parenting) is making that difficult for you to do though.

You could do with a sleep consultant, ideally in-person, to hold your hand through.

Could your partner take control of baby's sleep?

@FATEdestiny

He sleeps when he wants to, not when he needs to

You could change that.

This is not a fixed state that cannot change. I suspect your low mental health (in respect to parenting) is making that difficult for you to do though.

You could do with a sleep consultant, ideally in-person, to hold your hand through.

Could your partner take control of baby's sleep?

I think we’re going to have to go medical. He managed an hour and a half, so 1 hour 45 today, did well last night and had 11.5 hours so that’s a good total but he’s woken up half asleep and all over the place as though he hasn’t slept a wink.

He has a complex medical history and we’re seeing the paediatrician soon so I think we’ll have to ask them to investigate.

Im a big believer in leaving updates because people tend to stumble across related threads when they desperately Google a Q ten years later...

He’s not doing it anymore. He wakes up when he’s good and ready, I think because I’ve recently read ‘Taming the Toddler’ cover to cover and am less worried generally about him, and have formed a better and more secure relationship.

As it happens- I was right about the duration of sleep. He wakes at 6-7am after going down at 7pm, he will typically sleep 2.5 - 3 hours in the day at 12:30 and still seems sleepy (but nowhere near hysterical, red-faced, crying on floor etc) both in the morning and afternoon, but it seems enough for him now. His mood has improved, as has our relationship. I suspect a little of BOTH the chicken and the egg with respect to that.

I am much happier. I truly believe he wasn’t as securely attached to me (no mystery as to why, reading above...) and now that I’ve ‘let him in’ he is able to snooze. The days are better.

I’m sure there’ll be a big problem in the future, and of course there are usual tantrums and ups and downs but it feels normal now.

Thanks to all for your help and encouragement to at I could find my way

So glad to read that things are better and you're feeling happier ❤️