am i doing the right thing?

[dirtymonkey]

Dd is 9.5 months old and is still only going 2-3 hours at night without waking. Am I right in thinking she should be going longer by now?
She will go back down without a feed if she is rocked, can take 20 mins or more and then she tends to be even more unsettled.
I have tried shush/patting but she just screams & screams.
We have tried cc but we were only brave enough to last 40 min and really never want to try that again dh is even softer than I am!
During the day she'l l only sleep for approx 4little5 mins I usually leave her in my lap or go to bed with her.
She doesn't have a favourite toy or a dummy and is still bf am I expecting too much or too little?

we started to se a cd to play when ever we put her in room and after three nights she was sleeping so much better i also started to leave a bottle of expressed beast milk in her cot with her which se used to comfort herself with

hth

We have tried music, a strict rountine, a relaxed routine and no routine! Baths, no baths, lavender, baby massages, is there any way to teach her to settle herself back to sleep that doesn't invovle tears all round?

Routines take a long time to establish, i get the feeling that you cave in after an attempt at setting one shortly after you have started it.
You said you have tried this type of routine and that kind and then another, which makes me think your not sticking to one for long enough.

It doesnt happen overnight and there is no easy route.

If you really really want to establish a routine then you have to work at it, remain consistent and never let up. She will get used to it eventually.

She wont like change, she will cry and protest. I started setting routines with my dc from day one, they slept through from age 3months. I may have been just lucky with mine.
I never ever rocked mine to sleep and were always put down awake to teach them to go to slepp by themselves.

Also, i stopped breast feeding gradually at around 3months and that seemed to help with longer periods of sleep. Not that i recommend you stop bf-ing of course. Maybe try to introduce a formula feed once a day at night?? Is that an option?

I am a firm beleiver that routines shou;d be set in stone and never altered. They dont like their routines to be changed and that is basically what you are trying to do.
She is used to the way things are - that is her routine.

Id be beside myself if mine were still waking that often during the night at that age. I need my sleep badly and i dont cope well with continued disturbed nights - hence my sense of urgency from day one with mine to get the routines set.

Don't mind working at a routine honestly we usually do give it time it's the crying we get bear.
Am I being naive to think we can do this without tears all round?

Yes, i think you are. (sorry)

Babies dont like change, fullstop. She will protest end of.

Also, she will learn very quickly that all she has to do is cry and she gets what she wants.

Its not nice, knowing that you are making her so upset. That you are depriving her of what she thinks she needs or what she wants. But its either this way, ie cc and some anxiety for you and dp, or further endless disturbed nights.

The choice is yours.

I remember when i took away dd1s dummy at age 5months. It was awful, she was very distressed - i couldnt explain it to her, she couldnt understand why. But i made a choice, a firm decision and stuck to it. She did get used to it but it wasnt easy, at all.

I agree with haychee's no-nonsense approach,
consistently communicating a clear message is key.

However, if you feel CC is too strong for you and/or for your lo,
feel free to water it down.

It will still work but take a little longer.

"its either this way, ie cc and some anxiety for you and dp, or further endless disturbed nights."

Sorry but I disagree that the choice is this cut-and-dried. There are other, gentler ways to help your baby sleep longer (although, as DaddyJ says, they may take longer than CC). Have you read 'The No-Cry Sleep Solution' by Elizabeth Pantley?

At this age you might find the gradual retreat method works to help her settle without feeding or rocking -- and doesn't mean leaving her to cry. More info here.

DM your dd sounds exactly like my ds!(although he is 8.5 months old).

He has never slept well and never longer than 3 hours - often more like 1.5 hours at a time. He has started crying when he wakes and taking longer to settle. I sometimes bfeed him just for some sleep. Other times he will settle with just a cuddle and his thumb.

I co-sleep so don't understand why he is waking and crying as I am there next to him already.
We have a bedtime routine and getting him to sleep is not really the problem but everything I have read seems to imply that once they have been put down to sleep the 'correct' way they will stay there. I have put him down to sleep awake but drowsy after feed, song and cuddle but he still wakes up for no apparent reason. i know the magic solution is for him to be able to self settle but I don't see how letting him cry will get him to that point which is why i will not try cc despite pressure from others to do so.

I have read Elizabth Pantley as recoimmended by Megbusset above. it is much more in line with my parenting style and does have some gentler ideas but I don't think it has any particulalrly revelationary answers. i have come to the conclusion that my ds is just that way and I will have to put up with lack of sleep for a bit longer although it is killing me.

I think for some the strict routine and cc may work but they may just be lucky having babies that sleep better ( and frankly the smugness of some of them just adds to my stress!)

Sorry no soutions from me about getting more sleep but to answer your question about whether or not you are expecting too much I reckon it may just be that we both have babies who need more time to work it out.
Good luck.

I hope i didnt appear as smug. I apologise if i did.

I just started my routines very early, and had no problems. Luckily is was advised by an older female relative to do this and it worked wonders.

The way i see it, is that you have not done this and for the los entire life of 8-9months has become used to doing what they do as the norm. You will have a job on your hands to change what they think is the right thing to do.

I couldnt cosleep, i need my bed for me. My choice.

How you choose to retrain or not your los into sleeping longer is up to you. For me cc wasnt too upsetting, it was worth a week or two of distress for the long term reward of longer undisturbed sleep.

Apologies again i come across as smug, i dont mean to, im just sharing my experience so as to possibly help someone that has asked for advice. If my advice is not suitable then fair enough.

Agree with other posters that absolute consistency is the way forward.

I never left ds to cry, but did give him a dummy and shush-patted until he settled - he was only 3 months at the time.

I was comfortable with it, as he could never have felt abandoned, but after a week of a consistent routine of draw the curtains, lullaby toy on, dummy in, lay him down and shush pat until asleep, he was doing it on his own, and sleeping much longer at night.

It was probably easier then as he was that much younger.

If he's ever been unsettled again since then - he's now 11 months and went though a bad patch when he first got mobile and could stand up in his cot, and also seperation anxiety kicked in - I did the pick up / put down thing.

I didn't think of it as that at the time but looking back, that's what it was. If he stood up I lay him back down again. If he cried I picked him up and cuddled him until he stopped crying and then put him back down again. Repeat as necessary - one night it took me over an hour, but once he was lying down happily I sat on a chair next to the cot until he was asleep.

It didn't take long and now I can just put him down and leave the room and he sorts himself out again.

He has slept through consistently for a long time now, minus the odd blip for illness, teething etc.

Sorry if this sounds smug littlelouis, but just trying to share my experiences and say what worked for me, that's all

Was not having a go at the people on this site with my reference to smugness - rather meant it about all the people I or dp come into contact with who offer well meaning advice.

No offence to mumsnetters intended!

After I had dd1 (now 3.10 years) I naively thought that it was just a case of being organised and firm and sticking to the routine. After a couple of nights of minimal crying (5 minutes of half hearted tired disjointed yelling - please note we NEVER left her to scream) she seemed to crack it and was a dream baby and is to this day.

dd2 is so different and our approach is exactly the same, so I do think it is to do with the baby's temperament, even siblings are very different. We do put her down at 7pm like dd1 but we are up and down until 8pm at least reassuring her, so we are sticking to a routine but it's not easy.

I won't leave her to cry - I think you are right, how does leaving them to scream teach them to self settle? She does like a dummy and I don't but I am getting over myself on that subject.

I know I am very soft I can't handle the crying at all and dh is even worse (she is our pfb as you needed telling!).
We do give the routines at least a couple of weeks but maybe as we are not leaving her to cry maybe we mess the routine up and she is getting even more confused.
We will try those books and we have also booked a consultation with a cranial oestopath.
I would love to be able to stick to a stricter routine and admire all of you that and and do but my instinct is to hold her till she stops crying and that over rides my head every time.

Dirtymonkey, there is nothing wrong with your instinct at all. She will get there eventually, whatever you do -- cc may be a 'quick fix' but it really isn't for everyone.

Have you tried the pick up put down??? They cry you pick them up and hold them until they are calm (without the rocking), as soon as they are calm put them back down in the cot if/when they cry pick them up again and hold until they are calm, soon as they are calm put them back down.

I think at the age you are talking about this would take a couple of weeks (I started doing this from a few days old and it only took 3 or 4 times).

I do think from what you said on other threads I would go to the osteopath first as she does not seem to sleep very deeply which is unusual. HTH

Kellymom also has some reassuring info on sleeping.

Dirty monkey - your instinct is absolutely right - I couldn't leave my ds to cry either.

But please don't feel you only have 2 choices - carry on as you are or leave her to cry.

There ARE methods you can use that don't involve letting her cry alone, like the pick up put down method I talked about earlier - there will be others too.

Keep looking for a method you are comfortable with - there will be one out there that will get you the result you want without endless crying, but it will take a bit of work and commitment.

It will be so worth it though - I don't know how you are functioning after all those broken nights!!! IMHO you owe it to yourself to gently encourage her to sleep better, for yur own sanity!!

Best of luck

dirtymonkey have posted on your other thread.
No, my 18mth has never slept through - don't think it is her nature, but at 8mths(ish) it was too much and I figured she needed to learn how to settle herself as she was waking every 1 or 2 hours. Viewed it as teaching new skills rather than breaking bad (lovely) habits.

I did a gradual approach, sort of based on No-Cry Sleep Solution ideas (but she does have her dummy) and yes, she did moan a bit - but I don't mind moaning if she understands what is going on and if I am there to comfort her. I really object to CC - crying as a technique. Not for me at all. I have never really gone about a minute of leaving her to cry (proper cry) and sort it out herself (doesn't work anyway for her - she gets more cross and awake). She definitely has improved but we did co-sleep a lot too.

She is now 18mths and sleeps in a bed, she takes herself off for a nap when she is tired (used to do similar as yours - but 27minute naps a day!!) and has no issues with bedtime or going back to sleep - she LOVES her bed. She tends to wake once or twice briefly and I go in, kiss her or give her some water and go out.

So what I am saying is yes, you can teach her new ways to go to sleep without CC. We don't teach them to use a potty by strapping them to it and figuring they'll go eventually. There are more creative ways to teach things - try to work out what does she need to learn? There may be some protesting as a byproduct (just as there is if you say 'no' to a biscuit etc). For me, I decided how much she understood of what was happening and adjusted accordingly - I am firmer now for example than then.

Go with your instinct and work out what she needs to know now. I firmly believe that (once they are old enough) you can teach them new stuff whenever.

Hear hear Mummymagic