Feeding to sleep/contact napping help!

[Ashmum0304]

My DD is coming 15wo, I desperately want to get her sleep sorted! Until the last couple of weeks she was ok at both night sleeping and day napping (although she had to be on me for naps...couldn’t get her into cot successfully but rolled with it as she was tiny and gave me an excuse to settle in on the sofa and watch a film!). She’d go 5 hours at night before it went downhill and have a 2 hour nap in the day with one or two shorter ones aswell.

Last week we started putting her to bed at 7.30pm which has been successful, most nights she’s gone down ok and we’ve had several 8 hour stretches before waking up, feeding and going back down.

However her day sleep is now terrible. She falls asleep feeding all the time but never stays asleep for any length of time. She still won’t go into her cot for naps and I can’t remember the last time a nap lasted more than an hour but generally it’s only 30 mins now.

I can only get her to sleep by breastfeeding her and this association is getting worse I think (there was a time when I could feed then take her to a darkened room and rock her to sleep within 5 mins - no longer possible).

I want to break the breastfeeding/sleep association urgently but don’t know how, drowsy but asleep is a concept completely illusive to me. If she wakes in her cot and I try to re-settle without feeding she just cries and this escalates to hysteria so I have to feed her (she’s back asleep within a few mins so I know she’s not hungry just needs the comfort). Although I’m not sure if we could get past this if I persevered, maybe I give up to soon. Every minute seems like an age to me!
Can I go cold turkey on feeding to sleep and just ride out the storm assuming that she will just go to sleep eventually if I persevere?!
She sleeps in a sleeping bag I’ve thought about doing the usual feed to sleep routine but wait to put her in her bag in the hope that the disturbance would get her to ‘drowsy but awake’.

Also how do I get her to sleep in her cot in the day? I feel like if I could break the feeding to sleep thing this would naturally follow as if he able to get her to settle in her cot as opposed to trying to transfer her from me??

Well done if you’ve got this far and if anyone has any pearls of wisdom I’d be very grateful!

Do you have a routine in place for naps?
I think you’d need to work on replacing the association of feeding to sleep with something else.
When you put her down at night, is she already fed to sleep?
You could put her in her sleeping bag and feed her with some white noise on so she starts to associate those with sleep and then gradually feed until drowsy instead of asleep, put her down, pat/shush to get her asleep and then gradually build up until you feed when she wakes and then put her down with just the other associations.
Or have you tried a dummy?
I had a similar issue and I think we’re turning a corner...but if you don’t want hysterics, it’s potentially a long process if she won’t take a dummy.
If she’s not napping well, she’s probably overtired so you have to resolve that before trying anything else or she just won’t settle.

She’s definitely overtired ☹️
We were trying to follow a routine of morning nap, long lunchtime nap, afternoon nap with awake windows of approx 2h and last nap finishing about 2h before bedtime. It started to work well-ish but since starting to get her to bed at a decent time (as opposed to just coming up with us later), I can’t get her to keep to nap routine!
Bedtimes are: bath, 3oz bottle, breastfeed to sleep then transfer to cot asleep. She’ll have a good wriggle and sometimes wake herself up within the hour (can self settle from that but more often needs either a bit of shh patting or a quick feed) then generally sleeps through until at least 1am but often 3/4am. I’m happy with that bit!
We’re combi feeding due to a few issues with weight gain we’ve had (tongue tie and insufficient glandular tissue > poor supply).
She has white noise which I know helps because if it goes off she often stirs and then settles when I switch back on.
I’m convinced if I could teach her to fall asleep once in her cot she’d sleep well in there for naps but its getting there I’m struggling with! Likely a lot down to my lack of patience with the slowly slowly approach....
I’d struggle to feed her to drowsy but awake because if I unlatch her before she’s ready she screams (and due to previous weight gain issues I’m paranoid about her not getting enough!) so I’m thinking a better approach for us initially would be feed to sleep then wake slightly to achieve drowsy but awake?!
The alternative would be make her final feed a ‘full’ formula feed say 6 or 7oz then wind and settle in cot, cutting out breast altogether 🤷‍♀️

Also part of me is wondering is she too young for any of this should I wait til >6 months then commit to a strategy then if still needed....

I know it's hard but she is still very young and you have the 4 month regression to get through. I would wait until around six months

If you’ve not been through the regression yet I’d wait! It’s basically survive any way you can so you’d probably feed to sleep anyway.
And in the meantime, get her overtired cycle broken. That’s how I ended up contact napping in the first place! DS was so overtired he wouldn’t sleep unless on me (nights were different).
It’s my first day of putting him down awake for naps...it’s ok. Ish!

Regression doesn’t seem to have hit yet...I’m frightened! Was hoping if we could get the hang of self settling beforehand it might not hit us so hard...maybe wishful thinking and I’m guessing regression is imminent now anyway!
Good luck with DS @ELW85
Any tips on getting overtired cycle broken when I can’t get her to nap >30 mins? Or do I just let her have as many 10min post feed sleeps as she fancies in a day and hope cumulatively she gets enough?!
I just tried to pop her in cot (already fast asleep) for a nap and she screamed as soon as touched mattress!

Any tips on getting overtired cycle broken when I can’t get her to nap >30 mins?

Yes, reduce awake time so that there are more naps per day.

Forget the idea of 3-nap days or 4-nap days or whatever, that isn't how you work baby routines at this age. Instead work on awake windows - so you have a predictable amount of time between naps. It means your day is split into predictable and repeated cycles of:

● Wake
● Awake time - which includes a feed and settling back to sleep time
● Sleep

Repeat.... over and over again.

A decent approximation for awake time is nap length plus or minus 15 minutes, and never mire than 2h.

So a 30 minute nap means awake time of 1h (in the range of 45m-1h15). Or a 45 min nap gives an awake time as between 1h15-1h45. But if nap is over 1h, dont take awake time over 2h.

@Ashmum0304 - thank you! It is tough and like I say I’ve totally been there and still am to an extent, but I got lots of helpful tips and advice on here (@BabySleepTeacherUK is lovely and v knowledgeable!) and did a load of reading and honestly got myself worked up into a right state.
Then I took a breath, took the bits of advice that made sense and I thought would work for us and just tried different things with DS.
Don’t get me wrong, nights have only been in place for a week (Regression hug us early I think!) and I’m starting naps today but you will find your way.
The flip side of the coin is you’ll see lots of people saying sleep is developmental and can’t be taught etc but just give LO a chance to fall asleep on their own.
I started by making sure he had at least one independent nap a day, come hell or high water (usually in the car) so he realised he didn’t need me.
Then I tackled nights using a dummy.
It took some bravery (why would you want to jeopardise them not sleeping at night?!) but we did it.
Fingers crossed tonight is night 8 of putting him down fully awake after his bath (he used to fall asleep on the bottle after the bath) and him just sending himself off.
I’m sure it won’t all be smooth sailing, but honestly if I can get this far, anyone can! I was a nervous wreck thinking he couldn’t fall asleep without food.

And for naps longer than 30 mins to break the cycle, honestly, any means necessary. Food, pram, car, walking the halls, anything!! Or she’ll have a massive sleep debt and just be upset and will have lower quality sleep and get more overtired. It’s awful but you can break it!

Good luck 😊

@Ashmum0304 how has stopping bf to sleep gone? Any helpful tips you've found or even just a positive outcome at least? I have a 14 week old and have the same issue, except night sleeping is also terrible with almost hourly wakes! Need to know things can get better....

@Greenwhale I haven’t tackled that yet 😬 still needs feeding to sleep but sometimes at night wakes I’ve been able to resettle with rocking/shhing.
But since restrictions are lifting and we’ve been out and about more we’ve had several pram naps so I know she is capable of falling asleep independently.
Yesterday was the first time she managed a long day nap in her own bed.
I’m going to concentrate on getting her into her own bed for naps first, then tackle the feeding to sleep. A friend has just seen a sleep consultant and suggested introducing several sleep associations (sleeping bag, white noise etc) then gradually wean off the ‘annoying’ ones (feeding/rocking) so we’re going to try that.
I’ll keep you posted...there is hope though I promise even though I’ve made no progress 😂

Great progress with some rocking/shhing to sleep and the daytime nap in her crib - got to start somewhere!!
I look forward to hearing your progress!
You've inspired me to start with the naps too. It's not like I manage daytime sleep regardless as to if she naps or not so it seems more manageable than starting it at nights!

@Greenwhale how are you getting on?
My DD has spent some nap time in her cot every day this week....it’s been very variable some days 45 mins to an hour in one go, sometimes just 10 mins. Sometimes I’m able to resettle without feeding, sometimes not. But it’s a step forward from where we were before and it’s spurred me on to persevere. I’m hoping with time she’ll just spend longer and longer in there!
Also last night after she went to bed she woke and cried, we were eating dinner so didn’t go up straight away and slowly the cry turned to a whine on/off and she went back to sleep by herself! Then again in the night I’d put her down after a feed at 3am, 3.50am she started crying but it just lasted a few mins (I was just composing myself to get out of bed for her) then she fell back asleep by herself again!
I really hope that’s the first step to her self-settling?! Or am I being too hopeful that it’s just happened?
@BabySleepTeacherUK I’ve been trying to do the awake times based on nap length and it does seem to be helping so thank you, any thoughts on our progress, is it progress??
And @ELW85 how are you getting on now?
xxx

Mine is 16 months and still (bottle / sippy cup) feeds pretty much to sleep. He's slept through for months now and wakes happy at 7am. I'm happy with this as we all get sleep!! Once he's had his milk, he has his teeth brushed and cuddles is for about 5 mins, and falls asleep!

BabySleepTeacherUKI’ve been trying to do the awake times based on nap length and it does seem to be helping so thank you, any thoughts on our progress, is it progress?

(That's me - MNHQ gave me a handslap for advertising with my username, so back to my original username. I'm same person tho!)

Honestly? I think if you don't break the feeding/rocking to sleep soon it will become a much, MUCH bigger problem than it currently is.

The really key thing at this four (ish) month age is that baby goes to sleep where they stay asleep. If baby is fed or rocked to sleep then she is going to sleep in your arms - not the cot where she will complete her sleep. Transferring and already asleep baby is not helping her learn.

@FATEdestiny oh 😭
That’s a bit demoralising I thought we were doing ok, particularly given the crying to asleep by herself episodes last night.
If I put her in her cot awake she just cries and then I can’t seem to settle her at all (without picking her up) the cry just escalates....although I haven’t tried it in a while and maybe I’m not giving her long enough to calm herself. She’s too young for sleep training as such so what do I do in the meantime?

I wouldn't suggest any form letting baby cry at this age. That doesn't mean you can't be teaching her though, you can do that from birth.

The idea is to give just enough help to be calm enough to settle to sleep, and no more. So for example If rocking to sleep then don't rock all the way until baby us deeply asleep. Instead rock until baby is calm and not distressed, then stop and stay still (cuddling, not rocking) once calm. Restart rocking if upset, stop as soon as crying stops.

This follows through to getting baby on the cot. Once above is embedded and baby just needs the rocking to stop crying, but failing asleep is done stationary in your arms, start to work on when baby is put in the cot.

So rock until calm. Hold in arms until drowsy then into cot, hand on chest and you bent close to baby's face (sidecar cot helps) to settle in cot. When/if baby cries, lift and/start again - rock until not crying, stop as soon as not distressed, cuddle in arms until eyes first go, into cot, hand on chest and lean in close. Repeat repeat repeat.

It's not about having baby cry. But it is about bring consistent and having a plan. Giving just enough help to baby, but stopping at just enough and no more than that - this gives baby the opportunity to learn and develop.

Once baby will go into the cot at the drowsy point, next work on going in the cot earlier than drowsy using the same method.

Oh, and I'd also completely seperate feeding and sleeping. Like fully, so that feeding is nothing to do with going to sleep. To do this it helps if during the day you feed when baby wakes up from a nap, instead of when going to sleep.

It's more difficult to seperate feeding and sleeping at night. But at the very least rouse baby a bit (By winding) after night feeds before putting down. And at bedtime, feed at the beginning of bed time routine not the end.

At the moment if i try to rock to sleep it often just annoys her..crying starts and escalates until I can’t listen to it and give in and feed her. This might be just 5 mins though I don’t have a huge tolerance for crying and it’s a screech and stiffening her whole body away from me type cry. I can’t just keep going until she exhausts herself to calm?!
I had felt we’d made progress by getting her napping in cot even for short periods.
Now I feel like a terrible mother who has caused this feeding to sleep association and now I’ll have to put her through a whole lot of distress to break it 😢😢

How about a dummy instead?

Obvs baby isn't going to consider a dummy to be as good as breastfeeding to sleep at first, but it's a route towards independant sleep given yours likes sucking (feeding) to sleep.

You could also go the gentle and slow route. The idea would be to unlatch baby from the breast and hold in your arms until put in cot.

Then in a managed and deliberate way, unlatch baby sooner. So start unlatching as soon as swallowing slows and instead of feeding to sleep, cuddle to sleep. Like described earlier, relatch if needed but the idea is to only give "Just enough" help to calm baby, then withdraw a bit (ie unlatch) so baby does the last bit of calming to sleep themself. Over time unlatch earlier in the feed so the settling to sleep starts to become cuddling, rather than feeding.

@Ashmum0304 I have to say we are on a pretty similar track to you again!
This week I have managed to get her into her crib for naps-usually feed to sleep but the she rouses a bit in the transition to the crib and then I shush her with a hand on her belly and she goes off. I've even managed it one or two times when she's stirred to get her back asleep. To me this is huge progress.
I appreciate we still have the feeding to sleep going on but kind of hoping over perhaps even a couple/few months if it takes that long, that I can slowly put her in her crib sooner after feed, then straight after feed, then awake after feed etc and just slowly get her used to being awake in her crib to fall asleep in there without lots of tears. And if that fails, we won't exactly be far from the 6month mark so sleep training could be considered if I was still struggling.
Unfortunately our little one has decided at the start of the night she won't reliably fall to sleep when feeding this week so I've had to take to cosleeping at the start of the night after 2hrs+ of feeding and then she appears to sleep eventually. But then I can transfer her to her crib after that. I feel there will be lots of ups and downs in this sleeping journey!