Early Regression or Change in Wake Windows?

[ELW85]

Our DS is nearly 15 weeks and has gone from sleeping anything from 6-9 hour stretches at night to around a 4 hour stretch then waking every 2 hours.
Typically we used to have his last ‘nap’ finish by around 7.30pm latest then bath, bed by 9.
Now if we do that, he’s awake by midnight.
Last night he was spark out at 6.30 and nothing would wake him (he is a bit poorly though) and didn’t wake til after midnight for a feed and was settled after that until around 4am then down til 6.30.
Do we need to bring bedtime forward or back to get better stretches or is it the regression?
He naps for roughly 5 hours through the day but this had never affected his night sleep before.

Firstly, you can't take one night (or evdn two or three nights) of something great happening as that being "The Magic Answer". Chances are you could do the same thing five days and get five different outcomes at this age.

I would, however, use the 4-6 month range to start establishing an early evening bedtime routine - some time between 6.30pm and 8.30pm is ideal. So judge your nap times accordingly to fit this in.

Not unusual for the first period of night sleep to be the longest. But under 6 months you should have baby with you for nap a so the first bit of baby's night night be downstairs with you. This isn't a problem, it's the age many families introduce a "dreamfeed" when you lift baby and feed as you go to bed, to try to extend that longer first sleep. So you just team the dream feed with moving baby (already having done bedtime routine earlier) from downstairs to upstairs while doing the feed.

A large reason for the 4 month sleep regression is the significant increase in calorific need at this stage (as well as other things). So work on packing in as much milk as you can throughout the daytime, so less is needed at night.

@BabySleepTeacherUK - thanks, we’ll see what tonight brings I guess!

@BabySleepTeacherUK - so in the bizarre world of babies, DS has been taking a dummy to sleep.
At night I can put him down fully awake. Swaddled and he’ll go off in about 10 mins by himself with no physical contact.
For a week, this has been happening.
Same with naps although I’ve just held him at nap time with the aim of starting to put him down from tomorrow (a week since the new routine).
I just pop a dummy in his mouth and he’s off.
Bizarrely today he’s started fighting the suck to sleep of the dummy but I have been trying to get him down a bit earlier than I probably should.
Do you have any ideas on whether I should keep going with the dummy for sleep and how he would learn to self settle if so? I know you’re a big fan of them!

@BabySleepTeacherUK - I should also add that we came up to bed with him last night and I watched him put himself back to sleep 4 times (no dummy) between 7-12 so why doesn’t he do this through the night?!? Aargh!

That's great news all around @ELW85!

I'm not sure what you mean by fighting to suck? Was crying so not sucking? That just suggests a bit more help is needed to settle baby. My hand on baby's chest for reassurance is my usual next stage, bending down so my head is close to baby's.

Great if he settles without a dummy sometimes, when the pressure to sleep is high and baby isnt overtired. I wouldnt suggest you remove the dummy though, it acts as a 'next rung on the ladder' on the occasions when extra help is needed.

@BabySleepTeacherUK - thanks, I’d been feeling pretty good til this morning!
Last night was great; in the Snuzpod, swaddled, dummy in, no physical contact just reassuring words and off to sleep. Woke up around 4 hours later and polished off a 6oz bottle so clearly but of a growth spurt going on!
Back in the Snuzpod awake, dummy in, but of a grumble but again, off to sleep in 10 mins on his own. Don’t hear from him til nearly 5.
Day starts at 6am as he just won’t resettle and he polished off another 6oz bottle. I’ve classed this as the start of the day. Get him swaddled, in the crib and dummy and he just won’t go to sleep on his own.
Eventually picked him up to avoid obliterating nap time and he’s now passed out on me fairly quickly but wouldn’t take the dummy!!

So all week it’s literally been a case (for naps) of white noise, swaddle, dummy and as soon as the dummy is in his mouth he’s pretty much out, or out in a couple of minutes.
The last two days, I’ve done the same routine and he’s either taken the dummy for a bit and started crying or started crying as I’ve swaddled him so it’s been hard to give him the dummy. I’m not sure if he’s fighting the dummy or just wasn’t ready for sleep etc?!

Nine hours of sleep in two big blocks, with a quick feed/resettle in between is amazing at this age. It will be high quality good sleep too, the longer blocks of sleep indicate deep sleep rather than light sleep.

The quality of your nights sleep is the pointer for timing the first nap of the day. After a good night's sleep, you may get longer awake window first thing.

Its tricky guaging first nap of the day, not least because of that time you have dozing/resting in bed before starting the day. Its difficult to decide if this is awake-time or not. But my waffling aside, you issue might be due to the timing of the nap.

Regarding baby crying so not taking the dummy, look at how you give baby the dummy.

Dont just put the dummy in baby's mouth, baby needs to actively take the dummy. Use similar techniques for getting a good match when breastfeeding for this. Tickle baby's upper lip so that he teaches up with his mouth for it. Or tickle baby's cheek so that he turns his head for it. When he does actively take the dummy, aim the teat upwards towards the roof of the mouth. This is another breastfeeding tip, it encourages sucking.

Much like when breastfeeding, baby can get too distressed to be willing to suck. This is often down to being over tired (or very hungry) and once you're in that position the only thing that will help is sleep (then avoid being over tired next time). This is when extra help is needed. So if baby us swaddled and put down, but too distressed for dummy sucking then I'd pick baby up and whilst swaddled, gently sway and shush baby until calm enough to take the dummy. Once calm from being swayed and once with dummy, then out down.

@BabySleepTeacherUK - I actually think the overtiredness is a great point and sounds spot on. He’s been rubbing his eyes bless him from about 1h10 wake time today but has been having up to 1h40 before without looking ready for sleep and dropping off really quickly with no tears at nap time.
DS has been poorly this week with an upper respiratory tract infection so I think that’s had an effect.

Do you think naps are going to be harder to get him to do in his crib than his night time sleep? I’ve been amazed at how well he’s taken to nights and self settling.
When I first put him down he can get a bit kicky in his swaddle and he’s obsessed with putting his hands as close to his mouth as he can (which sometimes knocks the dummy out) but he doesn’t cry and just sends himself off with a few reassuring words from me.
I’d kind of hoped it would be the same for naps...

The first nap of the day is usually the easiest of the naps, getting progressively more difficult and teatime naps almost always need significant help. The teatime maps tend to be when you need to go on a pushchair walk or allow for a clusterfeeding/dozing session.

Night sleep is usually easiest, the body clock makes pressure to sleep great.

Ah ok! I’m totally screwed for getting him to nap in the crib then 😂
If he wouldn’t do it for the first!

@BabySleepTeacherUK - quick question if I may?
DS is now napping in crib being put down awake and getting himself off to sleep. Today is the first day.
I’ve just watched him self settle but then wake up crying a little while after. So far he’s managed an hour without help re-settling.
Do you think this is just because he’s getting used to no contact naps or overtired or both and how would you tackle it?
TIA!!

The answer is - there may not be an answer.

Sleep development in babies isn't linear, it's not the case that sleep starts off terrible and steadily gets better. Even a baby with the best sleep hygiene will not have linear sleep development.

There will be multiple times in the first year when sleep will go rubbish for a bit. That might just be a day or two, or a week or two, or longer. Then you preserver and it improves again.

Also, just throughout a normal day, with a normal well-rested baby, some sleeps are easier than others. It's normal that, for example, early morning (4am-6am) nightwake ups are hardest to resettle. And that daytime naps get more difficult through the day - so morning nap simple, teatime nap needs work.

So don't set yourself up for the idea that you can consider DS's sleep "sorted" and that all naps and nights will be good, always. All you should be aiming for is good sleep habits that you know will lead to good sleep hygiene long term. And an arsenal of extra help techniques you are happy to use on the odd times when baby isn't settling well.

@BabySleepTeacherUK - thank you! Very much appreciated as always 😊

@BabySleepTeacherUK - I’ve taken your point on board about the overtired and as DS awoke last night/this morning inconsolable I think you’re right.
What I need to do is redress the balance though, and I have no idea where to start. I’ve been getting DS down after about 1h15 today and he’s been much happier at naptime; drifting off himself within 10 mins and no tears.
My problem is that he would happily sleep for 5-6 hours a day which will obviously unpack night sleep.
All the usual advice says he should be having 3-4 naps a day and awake for 2 hours a time.
How do I limit his day sleep to get more at night whilst restoring his overtiredness?!?
I’m so stuck!

How was his night?

As a general approximation baby will want an awake window around double nap length (give or take). You mention 1h15 awake time, what is the (average) nap length?

I'm trying to work out what your day looks like to have 5-6h of daytime sleep, if awake time is 1h15. It suggests around six 2h cycles of 45m sleep and 1h15 awake - so 4h30 (ish) daytime sleep. Which is fine.

If your naps are longer, awake time also needs to be longer. If you're getting naps over 1h long then awake window wants to be 2h - which then in itself falls into the 3-4 naps with 2h awake window that you mention. This routine naturally forms as naps get longer.

@FATEdestiny - I’m just massively anxious that he’s spending all night awake. I realise he’s right beside me in a Snuzpod but I woke up and he’d done a full 180 in it, so caving the opposite way. How?!?
Meh woke once at about midnight for a bottle (drained, out down awake and sent himself off again) and then restless from about 3, awake at 5 and calmed back down to have another 2 hours til 7.

In the day, because I’ve not fully transitioned to crib naps, if he slept on me, he could sleep for hours. So if I didn’t try to limit day sleep he would do about 1.5-2 hrs in the morning from about 8.30 - 10.30 then 11.30-13.10 then 14:30-16:00 then 17:00-1800 then bed at 19:30. Just looked at my app from the other day.
Yesterday I’ve put him to sleep for naps way earlier than the 2 hour wake time after you mentioned crying with the dummy might be overtired and he was going to sleep after about 1h10-1h30.
I really fear he’s massively sleep deprived somehow and overtired in the day.
Today I’ve got his day sleep to about 4h49 and hoping to keep transferring it to the night a bit more. What do you think? I’m so scared he’s massively sleep deprived.
But surely if he was lying awake all night he’d cry out for meVn

@FATEdestiny - tonight in bed for 19;15, asleep by himself by 19:37 (wake window 1h55), awake by 20:15 and not self-settling?! Just got him back to sleep with dummy and hand on chest as was a bit whingy. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong?! I’ve seen him self settle loads?!

How about moving him to cot/crib naps in the daytime now?

He doesn't sound sleep deprived to me. I think you're doing really well with his sleep.

The night you mentioned above I would class as a "good night". Looks to me like baby slept well, maybe lower your expectations of what a good night looks like?

@FATEdestiny - yes that’s exactly the plan with the crib/cot naps! He did this morning and a solid 50 ish mins. Even did the late afternoon one but FH woke him up!
Would you suggest keeping the wake windows aligned to nap times or keep trying to get him down a bit earlier?

And he’s just woken up again!! Me trying to shift the balance of less day sleep and more night must have made him really tired. The last few nights we’ve had him in bed a similar time and not heard from him until much later (around midnight).
If I thought he needed 6 hours daytime sleep AND 11/12 hours at night of course I wouldn’t try and limit it, but I’m just so worried he’s lying awake...

More like 4h daytime sleep (give or take) is more realistic, and 10-12 at night.

@FATEdestiny so potentially a couple of tough nights until the balance of day/ night sleep is redressed?

I dont think your nights have been tough as they are though?

The one you mentioned earlier:
7 - 12 asleep
(feed and quick resettle)
12 - 3 asleep
3 - 5 restless (but asleep) - so light sleeping
Awake at 5 but settled
5 - 7 asleep

That's a good nights sleep. I would have probably given another night feed if not settling a while after 3am, just to get baby back to a deep sleep. But even without that, this is a good night.

What do you consider to be a tough night?

What is a good night?

I think your expectations are out.

Sorry @FATEdestiny - I don’t think our nights have been tough either! I meant last night when he woke up twice after putting him down for the night (never happens).
Last night he woke several times crying which he never does. He’ll usually wake, have a bit of a chat, dummy back in, off to sleep.
Which is why I was thinking if yesterday I was limiting day sleep, we might have a few tough nights until the balance readjusts?
The way he was crying last night, I’m tempted to let him sleep as much as he wants today. Maybe he does need 5-6 hours and then 10-11at night?
I just have a feeling if he can do a 180 in his crib, he’s awake for proportions of the night and catching up in the day?