5.5 month old - breastfeeding & sleep

[LMac502]

Hello

I recently managed to get my daughter into something that resembled a routine:

7/730 - Up for the day
9.15/930 - Nap between 30-60 minutes
1230 - Nap for 90-120 minutes
1630 - Short nap while in pram
1800 - start to wind down, bath, fed, story and bed for around 1915
2215/2230 - dreamfeed
For a few nights, she would wake once or twice, which I can handle. But now she’s back to waking hourly after midnight and then is wide awake from around 630 which kind of throws off her nap times.

Her feeding isn’t great, she’s exclusively breastfed though we are trying to introduce a bottle (with breast milk), so dad can help more. During the day I’ll offer the breast regularly, in the hope she’ll be fuller at bedtime, but for weeks she’s only been taking around 3 minutes of feed at each time, and only one breast. Her nappy output seems normal, but 3 minutes just doesn’t sound right. She’ll take longer through the night - both breasts and a good 5-7 minutes each.

Any advice on the waking up or short feeds, and also, should I change the nap times when she wakes so early, and/or make them longer?

Thanks

It sounds like maybe she's filling up during the night and just snacking during the day ... How long is she going between feeds in the day? If it's less than 2.5 hours-ish then maybe she's not hungry enough?
I always have the dilemma about nap times when my 6mo wakes earlier/later than usual. I tend to adjust nap times accordingly, so if he wakes at 6.30 he'll go down for a nap at 8.30 rather than 9. However, if it's a regular thing, and you'd rather she wakes up at 7, I think a few days of keeping her up until 9ish might help. It's so tricky!
I follow this American sleep consultant called 'taking Cara babies' whose stuff I've found so useful, there's lots of blog posts on all sorts of sleep issues, and she definitely covers early waking and night feeding.
Good luck! Also at this age I think there's lots of developmental leaps going on which affect sleep too, so it could be just a temporary thing.

F.y.i my vague schedule looks something like this:
7am wake and feed
9-10 nap
10.15am feed (plus extra feed before lunch nap if he seems hungry)
12.15 - 2ish nap
2.15 feed
4.00-4.30 nap
4.30 feed
6.30 feed
7.00pm bed

My children are now in their 20s so I'm out of touch on the latest advice and I know people I introduce solids much later these days (it was 4 months in my day), but I'd definitely be introducing solids, rather than bottles.

Thanks for the reply @gabbbbbbby. Her feed times are a bit all over the place cause I tend to offer regularly as she’s taking such short feeds. I’ll maybe look at spacing them out to see if she’ll take longer.
I’ll take a look at the consultant, always good to get a variety of hints & tips!
Thanks x

That’s the kind of schedule I’m trying to follow sleep wise, so will definitely look at the feeds. Does your little one wake for a feed through the night?

Thanks @Fifthtimelucky I’m trying to sort a high chair from my sister while social distancing but also got some baby porridge today to make a start on solids x

No he hasn't fed at night for a month or so... At first I was nervous, wondering if he was getting enough calories, but I think he must be having bigger feeds during the day. He was an absolutely dreadful sleeper until I started reading up a bit a following the sleep lady's advice! We moved him into his own room at 5 months for various reasons and that's when he started sleeping 7-7.
Everything is temporary though, and I think there's a big growth spurt coming up so I reckon he'll be back to a few night feeds soonish!

Thanks @gabbbbbbby, that’s good to know. We also put her into her own room at 5 months, and although not brilliant, her sleep has definitely improved. I’ve found the lady you mentioned on Instagram, and will be trying to space the feeds out a bit more to see if that helps.
Thanks again x

Bumping this again and looking for slightly different advice as I think we’ve made a rod for our own back over the last week.
I’ve started feeding DD myself for the dreamfeed - although this never ends up a dreamfeed as she always wakes before she gets it.
She also now wakes up between 12 and 2, so my husband has been giving her a bottle, tried both EBM and formula, and it’s a hit and miss how much she’ll take. This morning she woke properly crying less than 2 hours after having 2oz of EBM, and took a relatively long feed from me. Then woke again at 550, then again at 650. For the last wake, I just took her in with us as I knew she’d sleep another hour and I am exhausted.
Looking back on the last while, really she doesn’t do a stretch any longer than 3 hours through the night, and even then that would be lucky!
Any suggestions? I’m guessing I need to wean her off the 1am ish feed, but how do I achieve this?
Thanks

Sorry I can't help much here! I noticed my DS started sleeping through the night once I stopped the dream feed, it's like me getting him up at 10.30 interrupted him and set him in the pattern of waking every 3 hours through the night.
Hope you get some good advice! And definitely go back to Taking Cara Babies sleep lady, she definitely covers night weaning etc. Xxx

@gabbbbbby I forgot about Taking Cara babies already 🙈 Will go through her page during lunch time nap. Thanks xx

I think the issue here is the method you use to get baby to sleep.

It doesn't make any difference if it's breastfeeding or bottle feeding, if baby is feeding to sleep then that in itself is the '"problem" (inverted commas because many people don't see feeding to sleep as a problem, so it need not be).

Assuming you're feeding baby to sleep during night wakes, then baby is not waking because she's hungry. This is not about nourishment and calories. It's about the comfort needed to sooth her to sleep.

If the only way she knows to get back to sleep is through the process of being fed, then anytime the is light sleeping and wakes just a tiny bit, she's not able to just shuffle around and go back to sleep. Instead she needs her sleep trigger - feeding.

So the key to solving this is looking at the way your baby goes from fully awake to fully asleep. Developing ways for baby to do that independently is likely to mean baby will ultimately sleep more solidly.

The question follows - how will you seal with this?

You could just choose to carry on feeding to sleep and find ways to maximise you and her sleep while doing so. Cosleeping would be an obvious answer here.

You could choose yo take your time. Make small, gentle changes towards the end result. But at the same time accepting you are 'playing the long game' and so find ways to minimise everyone's stress by lowering your expectations.

Or maybe you are at the end of your teather - and that's ok too. Effecting more immediate changes may involve you thinking differently about parenting. It might involve "props" - for example dummy use (although 5 months is a bit old to enable introducing a dummy). It might involve some crying (from baby and possibly you too). It might involve changing feeding methods or changing who does bedtime, night wakes and naptime.

Hi @FATEdestiny, thanks for the detailed response.
She has a dummy and is able to find it and put it back in during naps and night time (have watched her on the monitor). We did the crying thing, not for too long, but that’s ultimately what helped get her naps longer than the 30 minutes she was doing previously.
Part of the issue (well I think anyway) which I mentioned in my original post, is her lack of feeding through the day, pretty much taking two or three minutes at a time, so come the dream feed she is ravenous. In saying that, she took good long feeds last night about 3ish and 5ish, so as you say it’s obviously not always hunger.
I think we need to stick with not offering a feed at the first post midnight wake up. Getting her to feed more during the day would help as well - I’m at a loss as to how to do that. Have tried noisy room, quiet room, dark room, when she’s fully awake, when she’s sleepy etc, and nothing has worked.
I guess it could be teething, she is dribbling a hell of a lot and has wee red cheeks. But then at points I’ve wondered if it’s silent reflux, she’s been posseting a lot lately, which is unusual for her.
Can you tell I’m a FTM

Meant to say, she’s not fed to sleep for naps or when she goes down at night, just the night wakings.

Part of the issue (well I think anyway) which I mentioned in my original post, is her lack of feeding through the day, pretty much taking two or three minutes at a time,

Babies get much more efficient at breastfeeding as they get older. You just cannot place any assumption on the length if time she's feeding for.

It is totally reasonable (and most likely) that she's taking just as much in the 3 minute feeds now compared to 15 Minute feeds 2 months ago. In bottle feeding parents can physically see this happening- 6oz devoured in 3 minutes compared to 4oz taking 20 minutes 2 months ago, for example. It's just you can't physically see that happening when breastfeeding.

It's also irrelevant that night/evening feeds/take longer. That is usual too. It doesn't mean she's taking more, just being more leisurely about it. The longer deeds you mention do not mean more milk.

Similarly that baby is only taking one side - again means nothing, you are probably producing far, far more milk per side now than you were meaning one side is enough volume of milk.

So basically - 'tis the nature of the beast with breastfeeding - the never being certain if baby is having enough milk or not. You can't read anything into anything, just have to accept you can't know.

Getting her to feed more during the day would help as well

Having said all I've said above, there probably is a calorie deficit issue here too. That assumption isn't necessarily to do with her behaviour, more her age.

The run up to, and month or so after, the beginning of weaning is always difficult to manage in terms of getting enough calories into baby. It's not unusual for sleep to be affected at this age for that reason.

Rather than concerning yourself with how long baby feeds for, instead focus on how frequently baby feeds - so feed more often. You can't make baby's stomach volume physically increase so if baby is full after a feed then you can't change that. But feeding more often will get more calories in.

Your not there yet and being a FTM you won't know, but once you start weaning then feeding baby goes back to how it felt with a newborn. It can genuinely be like baby us spending all of their time either feeding or sleeping - literally for the whole day.

So before you start weaning to solids, you could start milk feeds at the frequency you will be feeding post-weaning. Bear in mind that from 6m to 9m baby will maintain breastfeeding levels you now have, maybe increase. Plus solids on top. A typical day for my youngest at 6-7m looked like this:

7am milk feed
8-8.30am breakfast porridge (spoonfed)
8.30-9am fruit or toast fingerfood
9am milk feed
9am - 11am nap
11am milk feed
11.30-12.30pm puree savoury spoonfeed. Then lunchtime finger food. Then yoghurt spoonfed. Then fruit finger food
1pm milk feed
1-3pm nap
3pm milk feed
4.30pm milk feed
4.30-5pm power nap
5.30-6.30pm puree savoury spoonfeed. Then finger food whatever the family meal is. Then yoghurt spoofed. Then fruit finger food.
7.30pm milk feed then bed

As you can see - that is a lot of feeding!!

With that in mind, compare to how much/often you give milk feeds now. Granted my DD had a big appetite, but it's not unreasonable to say baby may well be wanting full feeds every 2h. Possibly even more frequently than that.

Its an incorrect assumption that frequent feeds mean baby is taking lessmilk per feed. If you were bottle feeding it would not be unreasonable for some babies to be having 7oz (Which is a very big feed) every 2h. It's just when bf you can't put a number on it.

I didn't relate any of that to sleep, and forgot this was primarily a sleep thread (sorry!)

The idea would be to tank baby up on calories through the daytime. Then night wean.

Yeah, I'd look to night wean completely at this age. It removes the "will mummy feed me this time or not" confusion. You have an established alternate comfort method in the dummy. So use the dummy and cuddles/reassurance only for all night wakes.

Night weaning will then increase daytime appetite further.

Hi, I know this wasn't your initial question but read upthread about introducing solid foods! Hope you don't mind me jumping in, ignore me if this advice is misplaced.

We recommend starting with vegetables as the baby porridges (the powder you add water to) are usually quite rubbish. They are very pasty so baby isn't getting much experience with texture and most are full of sugar, not to mention the price. If you're waiting till around 6 months to introduce the solids, you can just give baby normal porridge oats made with full fat cows milk if it's porridge you want to give. You could maybe give some chopped banana alongside it for baby to hold and feed themselves.

Hope you get your routine sorted, and good luck with weaning!

Defo go straight to porridge oats when you do start weaning. You can always whizz the oats up a bit if the texture is too course at first. Mix with breast for formula milk and add soft fruit.

Sorry OP to jump in with my own questions here but @FATEdestiny seems v knowledgeable about weaning and I've been still following the thread! The feeding routine you gave as an example seems SOOOO much more than my 6mo would want to feed. I've only just started weaning and he has spoonfed porridge and soft fruit at 8am and then tries finger food at 5pm ish (not much goes down at either feeding session)! He breastfeeds around 5 times a day and seems to take full feeds, especially in the morning. No feeds at night. He's happy and settled and seems to be growing fine, though I can't take him to be weighed at the moment.
Should I just follow his lead or start trying to encourage him to eat more solids and milk feeds? I was planning on introducing lunch solids in the next couple of weeks.
Thanks and sorry if hijacking threads is terrible Mumsnet form, I'm a bit of a newbie

No feeds at night. He's happy and settled and seems to be growing fine

That's all that matters Gabbbbbbby, so please don't worry.

My youngest child, so my most recent to wean, has a massive appetite. She's atypical and my other children (I have four) didn't eat quite so much. That said, mine have all dived into solids with gusto and eaten lots. That's just my family though and all of us are different.

There are two things I'd be mindful of...

Firstly, in the future (definately not yet) you'll need to replace milk as a primary source of calories so that food becomes where most calories come from.

I generally work on the basis of 6-9m maintain post-weaning levels of milk with increasing amount of solids in addition to milk (not instead of). Then 9-12m start increasing portion sizes so that food calories replace milk feeds. Then post 12m milk forms part of a balanced diet, but not with any greater reliance than otger food groups.

The second thing that I realised after my first child was important, so made conscious choices with subsequent children. That is to favour savoury flavours over sweet. It's amazing how quickly babies developed preferences to sweet foods, including healthy sweet foods in that.

So where ever possible I'd go savoury and not sweet. In the very early weaning days like you're on Gabbbbbbby, I wouldn't be offering anything sweet at all. Porridge oats would just be porridge and milk. Lunch would only be savoury. I wouldn't offer fruit until solids were more established and even then I have a preference towards bigger savoury portions rather than sweet things.

@FATEdestiny thank you very much - the level of detail you add to responses is so helpful. Did not realise they fed that often when they start weaning
@avotoast1 thanks for the input, all responses much appreciated. Take your point on the baby porridge, we have given it a try but it does seem a bit pointless!! Will get the veg ready, thankfully getting a high chair next week!

It might be comfort baby is looking for. Teething pain is often relieved by bf. The action helps relieve tension in the jaw apparently.

@FATEdestiny thank you so much for the advice! I'll stop putting fruit in with his porridge, I've already noticed a tendency for sweeter things... I tasted a bit of my breast milk and was shocked how sweet it was, so I suppose it makes sense they'd favour that.

@LMac502 good luck tonight!

@gabbbbbby I’m laughing here at you being shocked at the sweetness of breastmilk - my hubby said the same thing this morning after accidentally licking his arm after testing a bottle he was giving to DD

it was like coca cola!

Being distracted is normal from 4-5 months. DS is the same. He pops off after 2-3 mins for a smile at me, or to call daddy, or just to roll off my body as he finds it fun; then I’ll pop him back on (switching breasts) until he refuses to feed. I found tracking his total feed duration across the whole day useful - it hasn’t changed much, so he’s feeding the same amount but in smaller intervals.