sleep deprevation

[calcium]

HELP!! I am now getting desperate as my 3 month old dd will not sleep any more than 3 hour sretches at a time during the night (usually one ) meaning that I have to get up 4 times to either feed or settle her. I am following a GF routine which works well during the day apart from putting her down at 7pm which is an impossibility. she usually goes to bed around 8-8.30pm with a feed of BM and EM and then when she awakes about 3 hours later I give her a bottle, after that its 2 hours, sometimes 1 and a half hours throughout the night until around 5.30am when she just grizzles and thrashes around so I have started getting her out of her cot and putting her in bed with us so that I can get another sleep (not something I want to encourage). She used to settle well each time she woke but now that also is becoming difficult. I am now going to try to put her on a bottle and give up the BF as then dh can help with night time feeds. I am at my wits end and really need some tips/advice. I hope someone out there can help.

Calcium, how is she feeding and sleeping during the day? When you say its an impossibility to put her down at 7pm, why is that?

Above all, don't worry, whatever you are doing now to get some sleep is not going to become a fixed,unchangeable habit, so don't worry about putting her in bed with you at night.

It would be nice to sort this so you don't have to give up the bfeeding.

Calcium, lots of sympathy and hugs to you. I agree with Enid, don't worry about popping her in with you for a little while, she is too young to form habits.
Why don't you try bfeeding during the day and then bottle during the night so dh can take a turn. Also try last feed at night with a bottle?
She is still young. My dd was on average waking once for a feed at 3 months and didn't go right through till 5 months. She may be having a growth spurt. Also, any sign of tooth buds ? This could be causing her problems. Hang in there. Just when you think it cant get any worse normally I find it gets better. xx

You don't have to give up breastfeeding because you give bottles at night sometimes. Breastfeeding is amazingly flexible. And really don't worry about encouraging 'bad habits' - babies change all the time and she will be a totally different child in a couple of months (may well still not be sleeping through, but that's another story!). I have posted some other ideas on the other thread accessed from the home page.

I would reconsider giving up breast feeding. You might find that you have a bottle fed baby who still gets up as frequently during the night.

I have to say that I think it is totally unrealistic to expect all 3 month old babies to go to bed at 7pm. Perhaps the problem is that you are trying too hard to get your baby to adopt a routine that does not suit her. If she went down later at night she may well sleep better.

I truly believe that the health benefits gained by breastfeeding a baby outweigh how well they sleep. If giving a bottle at night helps you continue breastfeeding do it. Think twice about giving up all together - you have done so well feeding her up until now. I took all my babies into bed for feeds so that I could sleep at the same time. None of them developed the habit of needing to sleep with us. That way, they got the feeds they needed and I wasn't wrecked. Good luck.

Calcium - have been reading through a few of your threads and am just wondering how well you are coping overall. Is it just the sleep problem or are you finding life with a baby overwhelming? Sometimes sleep problems can lead to the masking of actual postnatal depression.
Have you got good support round you so that you can have a bit of a break from the baby? Have you got a good GP or HV?
I hope you don't mind me bringing this subject up - just concerned for your welfare.

I do give her a bottle with Expressed milk before she goes to sleep which is usually around 8-9pm (the 7pm was a Gina Ford routine suggestion) then the next time she wakes up she has a bottle of formula and the breast, from then on its the breast. I don't mind her sleeping in the bed with me its just she thrashes around so I then get even less sleep which is why I was trying to get her to sleep in a cot! I wouldn't mind if she woke up once in the night, even twice.

I want to give up breast feeding eventually as I am going back to work but giving her a bottle at night and bf in the day is a good idea. Some people say keep the baby awake as long as possible in the evening then put her to bed with a feed, feed when she wakes up next and then not until morning so she gets the idea. anyone tried that??

Calcium - have you tried following GF (since you mention her)?
Did it not work ?

Calcium - you might find if you B/F her before putting her to bed she would sleep longer especially if you fed her mainly from the one breast which would give her more fatty hindmilk. Then your dh could give her the EBM when she wakes in the night. It might be worthwhile trying her cot in another room - perhaps she is being disturbed by you and your dh.

Did you try a dummy at all?

Calcium if you are going back to work couldn't you breast feed at night and bottle feed in the day?

Pupuce - yes I have tried the Gina Ford but there is nothing about if your child follows the routine in the day and then doesn't sleep through the night! Maybe I should ring her?

Mears - yes I have tried the dummy but she only takes it when she really wants it and even then I spend the whole time having to put it back in as she sucks and then it pops out!
As for the EBM bottle at night yes he could give it to her and this is what I propose from now on.
Bozza - yes I could breast feed at night when I am working but I will have BF for 4 months by then and cannot do the express thing at work, not possible so it may end up being just a suckling thing for her.

Calcium - I had (and still have) many of the same problems as you with my now 5 month old DD.

You mentioned feeding at the first wakeup and then not again - I am doing this at the moment. If DD wakes before 11.00pm then I feed her (I am still only b/f as she won't take a bottle). Any subsequent wakings I go in and settle her. I had been doing this for a week and it resulted in her sleeping through - but only for 2 nights. I then got a blocked duct so had to feed her whenver she wokeup which put me back to square one.

Anyway, have been doing the 'one feed only' since Friday night and we seems to be getting there (hope I havn't jinxed myself). It was hell on Friday and Saturday night but is getting better. She only wimpers now and goes back to sleep. I sit with her until she goes off.

Not sure if this is any help - sorry it is so long.

Calcium while I appreciate that we are all different and what worked for me might not work for you let me tell you what I did. I breastfed exclusively for 3 months. Then when I went back to work when DS was 15 weeks I too hadn't got the hang of expressing so I put DS onto 3 bottles of formula during the day. I would then feed him when I got home from work (6.15 pm), before bed (10 pm), in the morning (6.00 am) and as required through the night. I stopped breastfeeding at 6 months. This meant we never had the hassle of sorting formula out in the night etc. I also stuck to this routine (ie bottles in the daytime) on the days I was not working. Do you think this is worth considering?

It wasn't perfect and I sometimes struggled with long working days on top of this but I still think it was the best option for us at the time. AT 12 weeks our DS was not going to bed until 10.30 pm so you are doing better than we did in this respect.

Message withdrawn

Just to say Calcium that like Bozza, I have never expressed this time around at work but am still breastfeeding my 9 month old at 6am, 6pm and just before bed. It works very well. During our recent 2 week holiday I moved the feeds to during the day in order to save the hassle of making up formula when we were out and about and it made life a lot easier. It's amazing how flexible b/feeding can be.

Calcium, I'm not quite sure what you mean by not being able to express milk at work, whether you don't feel confident enough or that your workplace doesn't have the facilities. If it's the latter then I think your employer by law has to provide somewhere for you to express and store milk. I can't actually check this out as I am not in the UK and don't have access to all my info but if you call NCT on 0870 444 8707 I'm sure they will be able to tell you what your rights are. HTH

I'd second Bloss about ringing GF... everyone I know who has rung her (not many mums but 3!)have found her very helpful...

Good luck

Bloss/Pupuce - do you have the Gina Ford telephone number? a friend of mine also knew someone who rang her help line and it sorted her out.

As for the BF yes I am now giving dd a bottle at 11am and the last evening feed and will breast feed the rest ending up with bottles in the day and BF at night (hopefully she will by then only be waking a couple of times) Last night was the worse with her waking 6 times!!

As for expressing at work its not that they won't let me but I travel around the UK and it simply isn't practicle to keep trying to find places to express, its bad enough trying to squeeze in lunch.

I do express when I can but being so tired I don't have masses of milk.

Once again the GF helpline phone number would be great, I am assuming it is in the UK?

Calcium. How long before you go back to work?

Calcium - I've seen you on a number of threads, and like Mears, and I'm sure many others, I'm becoming concerned for you. I'm only a few months further into this parenting thing, and so have not the wealth of experience that many of the other women (and men) on here have, and so (contrary to what the number of posts might suggest) I'm reticent about giving advice - all I can say is that your situation sounds very similar to what I was experiencing 3 months ago, and let you know that things have entirely turned around in the last 3 months.

My ds was feeding v. often - he'd rival your dd - and would not accept a routine - I was shattered and at my witts end.

For me, the only way I could get through the day was to deal with it all as a job of work - I felt no joy in my new role as a mother and felt that I must be in some way inept as I couldn't get ds to do all those wonderful things you hear about, like sleep. I was due to return to work when ds was 18 weeks (decision taken in early pregnancy)and was dreading it - I could not conceive how I would ever manage, he wouldn't even drink milk (even ebm) from a bottle.

I eventually just gave in and went with the flow - the path of least resistance - taking him to bed to feed through the night if need be, giving up on any suggestion of a routine and that model of a perfect bab. We then found a way of getting on (ds & me), somehow I got used to the broken sleep and started to feel some connection with him other than obligation (before then I was starting to think that this bond thing was a cruel myth). ds eventually expanded his tummy enough that he could fill up to last longer than a couple of hours, and my energy levels increased further.

ds is now 6mths, sleeps upto8hrs and is a joy to behold, but is still ravenous - eating us out of wee glass pots, and drinking me & the chemist dry.

Please don't feel you have to manage this alone - use any help you can find, jadgole or blackmail - friends, family, professionals (if your willing to let us know your location I'm sure a couple of mumsnetters would be happy to meet you - I'm in SE Scotland) insist your dp is of more use, and most of all, please don't feel duty bound into meeting someone else's expectations.

If you wish to, and can afford to delay returning to work on the pre-ordained date, don't feel forced into complying with decisions made many months ago - that has been my one big regret of ds's early life. I feel that I was only just waking up to him when I returned to work, and it was too soon for me. On the other hand - time away may be what you're seeking, in which case go for it.

Keep in touch.

Janeway - how refreshing to find someone who actually admits to the whole thing of motherhood being a chore and not a joy (although I am sure it will become this) I do love my dd please don't get me wrong, but unless I get some sleep I cannot do my best with her. Bozza I was meant to be going back to work beginning of October but I am now going to delay it to November.

dd was weighed today she has put on 12 oz in a week!! I must be doing something right!

calcium,

WOW ! 12oz is bloomin' good! It must make up for some of the heartache ? I hope so. It's reassuring when that happens - it certainly means that you are doing something right - Well Done You!

I second mears opinion about the dummy - as my DS was a very sucky baby and this did tend to settle him late in the night. But I admit it's jolly hard when they are so young as they cannot pick the dummy up themselves. But by about 5-6mths DS was able to do this and he did have about 6 dummies in his cot!

I have not read each response in detail but I second alot of the good advice you have been given. Forgive me if I am repeating someone else, but remember that after a long hard day ( especially following the stress of no sleep ) your breast milk will be a bit more watered down and not as good quality. Maybe that might be worth thinking about whilst giving the 'last' nighttime feed .... it may not be as filling ?
HTH and Good Luck

I think that you are doing everything right. Do not put yourself down. I too have felt exactly like you. I had (as I have already said) 8 months of it, where ds never went longer than 4 hours before needing a feed. It was exhausting, and I too felt down. I was worried that my depression would come back, and that I would be an even worse mother.

I know that you don't believe it, but it WILL get better. One night she will go through, or do 6 hours or so, and you will wonder what happened. She is still young, and needing lots of food. Once she reaches six months, you can start (as someone else has already said) controlled crying, as she will have taken enough food in the day to last through the night.

You seem to be doing all the right things, and have had lots of very good advice. As I have said before, it seems like she is just a hungry baby, as my ds was. It is only a few more weeks until things will improve, and you must remember this to keep your sanity!

Have a treat for yourself while she is asleep, like a long bath or something, and make sure that you look after yourself. I can tell you from experience that your hormones are all over the place at the moment. Once they have settled down (mine did when my periods came back, when ds was 8 months old), you will feel soooo much better. You will not believe the difference.

If you feel that you may be getting depressed, see your gp. They can help. Don't feel this way all alone, because it will not benefit you or your dd.

Lastly, remember this, and repeat it after me...'I am a good mother, and this is only a stage'.

Calcium,
Motherhood for me was just a chore until my dd was around 6 months old (she's now 9 mo). I felt so guilty when people would say to me "Enjoy her !" because I really didn't. Looking back now, it seems so strange that I viewed her merely as an obligation that had to be fulfilled...now I'm completely besotted with her ! Of course, she is now older and can do more which is lovely, but I was also suffering with PND and cannot deny that the tablets are helping me a great deal. I am SO glad that the bonding has finally happened between us.
Sleep is also really important, we found that swaddling dd really helped because she would thrash around and that woke her up. Have you tried swaddling or perhaps tucking her in really tightly, given the weather ?
GF number is 01289 303351 - for some reason I viewed it as a "talisman" and used to think that if things ever got really really bad I could call this number and everything would be OK ! Of course, I know now that it doesn't work like that but at the time it was just nice to have it around and I would even just phone it to hear her voice on the answer maching and then hang up !! (this is very embarrassing !!)
Now that I've bared my soul, I'm going to go and watch Holby City. Hope I've helped in some tiny way........

Calcium - 12oz gain in a week is proof that calories are not the problem here. Well done you.
Even if it means that dh has to spend a few hours holding in the dummy while you sleep - so be it. Have you tried cherry shaped ones that Ionesmum found good? Once she learns to suck it properly she will keep it in there.
She will eventually sleep but until that happens you need to utilise your dh to allow you to get some unbroken sleep. Get a rota going - one night on duty, one night off. Actually that is a friend of mine's sex rota - she says it's bliss to know she can go to sleep alternate nights without any hassle