does my 7 month old NEED 3 feeds in the night?

[ginnypotter]

she's breastfed, about 6 times during the day and 3 times at night. she has 3 solid meals a day (she's a big baby lol!), and basically i'd really love a full nights sleep
what i'm wondering is if she NEEDS the night feeds or if it's just a habit. i really don't want to leave her to cry if she is genuinely hungry, but on the other hand i'd really like some sleep and she eats so much during the day!
she usually wakes for milk at around 1am, 3am and 5am, anyone got any suggestions? i would be very grateful

Wow! That must be a habit. I have absolutely no idea how you cure her of it, but you poor, knackered, bloody cow

Can you leave bottled water in her cot and hope for the best?

Do you co-sleep? Babies who co-sleep feed more frequently at night and until they are older. My DS still feeds twice and he is 11m, but I am okay with this. As you're not, maybe try comforting her in other ways first and try putting her back down, and maybe stretching the time she feeds forward by 15 minutes a night.

no i don't co sleep, although i have to say i do feed her to sleep at 7pm , i thought when she started on solids (about 3 weeks ago) she would drop some of her milk feeds, but apparently not, she still feeds every 2 hours during the day, which i don't mind but i am knackered from lack of sleep at night as well. i can't wait till my 3yr old starts nursey in september
so do you think it wouldn't be horribly cruel of me to try and cut down the night time feeding? and how do i do it? i don't want to leave her to cry...

nineunlikelytales - i like that idea, seems much more gentle than cc...... but if she just cries for 15mins and then i feed her won't she just think that crying=milk iykwim?

Maybe the feeding to sleep is the problem? If that is her last cogent memory, if she wakes in the night she's automatically going to want to resume? Give her her last feed in the evening, then let her roll around for half an hour or so before putting her down.

I co-slept when mine was that age. For what it's worth, he never woke in the night, but they're all different so little can be read from that.

Hi Ginny - just to say that you are not alone.... my 7 1/2 - wakes at identical times to you... She also is a big girl who eats 3 good meals a day.

I find the problem is that sometimes when she wakes she only has a very small bf - so I think that she only wakes as habit but then another feed is a full one. I don't really know whether to try and leave her cry incase she is hungry?????

I,ve been co-sleeping and it is much easier. However, I'll be watching your thread with interest for any tips!

Isn't it knackering though!

Sorry Desi,but what planet are you on,recommending that a bottle of water is left in her cot??

She's tiny,breast milk is very digestible and they do wake needing more.Shes' going from 7 am to 1 am without a feed right? That is a bloody long time. I would dream feed her at about 10/11 pm and see if it makes any difference.

If dc has only been weaned for a couple of weeks she is probably only having puree's? If so there are no calories in these and won't fill her up, so it won't affect the amount of night time feeds she requires.

I would try working on not feeding her to sleep. Also, maybe try cluster feeding late afternoon/early evening, and/or a 10pm dream feed.

Ginnypotter I don't have experience of doing it myself, but my friend did it with her BF baby with apparently no ill effects.

I hadn't realised your DD was so recently weaned though. If she is still on mostly fruit and veg, she might well be catching up on calories missed during the day because her tummy is too full of low calorie food to BF sufficiently. If I were you I would wait until she eats a bit more before looking at cutting down at night, if that's the case.

My 5.5 DS is very similar and I've been posting asking about the same thing this week. My friend who is a midwife said they do so much of their growing at night, so that's why some babies feed a lot then. she advised trying to push the middle feed closer to the last one to begin with, so you could try to stretch her if you can from 3am a bit more each night, by trying to get her to settle again by cuddling etc. as suggetsed below, even if you only go 10 mins a night until eventually you might get to 4am / 4.30, and hopefully she'd then drop the 5am - it might result in her getting up earlier than usual to begin with tho'. then do the same with the 1am feed, until eventually you're down to one waking.

• I've read Elizabeth Pantley's sleep book on this too, and when you ask about won't she just think crying = milk, she does say that if what you're trying isn't working that night, do what works until it does - so it really is slowly slowly, only try to stretch the time if you can do so without her crying, if that's what you're trying to avoid. Yes, she might have a little cry initially, but may well just settle with a cuddle for a few extra minutes.

that's why I haven't managed to crack this one yet, as the only alternative to crying it out, which I'm against, is to take it slowly and it will take time - and if it was the middle of the day it would be easier to have the patience, but in the middle of the night when you want your warm cosy bed yourself, it's so much easier to give in to the boob as it works isn't it?!!

good luck, let us know if you crack it.

Was she premature? If she's very small, then I'd wait til she's taking more solids, just to be sure she's not hungry. (Small belly!)

I have a 10 week old BF baby who usually only wakes twice between 7pm and 5am. I have read that if you can set the clock by your baby's waking times, (sounds like you can), then it's a habit not hunger that is waking them.

Certainly, I can't see why she'd need the 3am feed, only 2 hours after the 1am feed.

I would try the dream-feed at 10pm to see if you can make her "long stretch" 10 to 3 instead of 7 to 1. It worked for a woman in my post-natal group on a younger baby. The other thing is that I've read that breaking their habits can stop the night waking. Baby-whisperer books recommend waking them a little (ie, just about rousing them from sleep and then letting them drift off again), about an hour BEFORE their usual waking time to break the habit. Not tried it myself, but I know when you're knackered even the most mad-sounding suggestions are worth trying!

TBH - I'd be at the end of my tether if my baby was 7mo and not going at least 7 or 8 hours at night. I know every baby is different, but it's certainly ok to expect them to not need feeding at night.

Oh, other thing I've noticed with my baby is that it's soooo tempting to just pop her back in the cot at night when she falls asleep at the breast BUT, I really have to make myself give her cheek a tickle and just double check she's really finished. I've found if I don't do this, then she could be awake again in a couple of hours as she hasn't taken a full feed.

That said, I would hazard a guess that this is a night waking "habit" you have on your hands, not a feeding problem.

I did find a great book "Healthy Sleep Habis, Healthy Child, by Dr Marc Weissbluth". He's a bit of a fan of leaving older babies to cry when they're definitely fed, dry etc, but does also give other methods to try if you're not happy to try it. It's really helped me get my baby to bed early at night and sleeping for longer periods. HTH.

OMG 12yrgap, my DS NEVER wakes at the same time every night...does that mean that his 3 wakings do mean he is genuinely hungry every night at each waking and I shouldn't even bother trying to change things??

Has your DD ever slept as long as a 5-6 hour stretch in one go? It is harder if she has never done it. My DD slept well until 17 weeks then woke 2-6 times a night until at 7.5 months then she slept through and now at 9 months still does mostly. I got the Millpond book and the NCSS and I did a form of gradual retreat - they do cry but you don't leave them alone. My DD is also a very large baby but she still hardly eats any solids but has managed to sleep 11 hours on only half a pot of yoghurt so IMO sleep and food are not related at this age.

GR really worked but then I found my presence made her more hysterical at around 7 months. Now with DD I feed her put her down semi awake and leave her for 10mins she does often cry which I really really hate but 90% of the time she will go to sleep herself. If after 10mins she isn't asleep I usually feed her again and try again 99% of the time that works. Again 10mins is left and the next time I would feed her to sleep. I will always go in if she gets hysterical at any time and I can't bear it. I'm a softie. When my DD goes to sleep in the car/pram she cries at bit first normally so I try and tell myself thats what she does.

I do it for both daytime naps and night time. I know how sleep deprived you feel. I got my DH to do the gradual retreat part as I could cope with holding her and hearing her cry.

Good luck.

Choolie, I think it applies to when they do wake at the same time every night, but is not necessarily true in the reverse, iyswim. By-the-clock wakings can most usually be attributed to a habit. Irregular times of night-wakings do no automatically mean hunger - it just means that at certain times of the night, your baby "surfaces" from sleep (they have approx 45 min sleep cycles where they go from light to deep and back to light sleep again) and instead of going into the next cycle, they actually wake. In a young baby, it's safe to assume that a night waking, 2-4 hours since last feed (you'll know how often your baby usually feeds) is a hunger waking. Other times could just be that baby needs help to get back to sleep.

In a baby over 4-6 months, depending on how long their sleep has "stretched" at night, frequent wakings could very well not be food related. That is, after 4 months, babies usually can sleep for about 8 hours or more without needing food. I read in the book I mentioned below, by Dr Weissbluth, that night wakings after this age are more usually sleep disturbances, than hunger wakings. If you don't feel you can leave your baby to re-settle themselves at this age, then perhaps try to soothe them back to sleep, (holding hands, gentle shushing, placing a hand on their chest, etc) so that they learn to link more sleep cycles, than make a habit of getting fed at night, when they're not actually hungry. HTH.

yes, I definitely think now it's habit, as he's less interested in the feeds and getting harder to resettle - have taught him all the sleep associations that people told me not to, such as feeding to sleep, cuddling to sleep etc. that we've both loved but haven't helped him learn how to settle himself [BIG SIGH!] changes ahead. I'll have a look at that book ta, have got NCSS and am finding that one useful too. I had such high hopes when Mum & Dad said I was a perfect baby, slept all the time etc! ha ha, def doesn't take after me.

If she is feeding every two hous during the day as well then i'd be inclined to think that she does need those night feeds, in as much as she is a grazer rather than a 3 big meals a dayer. I'm impressed she goes from 7-1 tbh

hi - my ds is almost exactly the same - at 7 months he wakes 4/5 times in the night. last night was his first night in his own room and it was a nightmare. tonight dh is going to go in and try and settle him, as we think it might be that he has got into the habit of feeding himself back to sleep. the thing is, i wouldn't mind if he nursed back to sleep and stayed asleep, but he's waking every 2 hours at the moment and it's horrific. i'm like the walking dead. he'll fall asleep on me or dh but then wake up and cry as soon as we put him in the cot. farking nightmare. when he was 11 weeks he went down like a dream at 7 and woke once at 4 for a feed, then woke at half 7 the next morning. then at 16 weeks he started waking more and more times in the night, till now, when both me and dh are starting to lose the plot a bit!

so, no practical advice there, but lots of sympathy, and i'll be watching this thread with interest!

yes she is still feeding every 2hours during the day, despite having 3 solid meals a day, milk at 7, breakfast at 8, milk at 9 and so on.......
she wasn't premature and is not in anyway small for her age. i don't go to the health visitor but on my scales at home she seems around 20lb, so i am not worried about her weight! lol! it's odd cos when she was younger, she only used to wake once or twice
i think we have also taught her bad sleep associations, she has dummy for day time naps and dh will give her the dummy if she wakes before 1am cos i don't want to feed her (unless she is poorly or something obviously!) and she will usually suck on the dummy and go off to sleep, but at about 1am she's having none of it and wants her mummy milk.

biggest prob is whatever time i first feed her, she then demands feeding in 2 hour intervals until bedtime the next day. it wouldn't be so bad if she could feed at 1 and then go till say 5, but it's like she has an internal guage, that hits 'empty' after 2 hours odd child........

No advice really but just to say that my 7-month old DD is just the same. She used to sleep well at night until she was about 3 months and then started waking several times at night. We co-slept from about 4 months as it was the only way I could function the next day.

Now she still feeds prob 4-5 times at night and what feels like constantly (but prob isn't - half asleep) from about 5am - 7am when we get up. I think she prob has one big feed during the night and the rest are snacks or for comfort. We started weaning a month ago, she eats solid three times a day but usually tiny amounts.

Am happy to continue like this for the moment but might think again if it's still the same at 10-11 months!!

Am glad I saw this thread as all my RL friends seem to have full babies who sleep from 7 - 7 and gobble up three-course solid meals a day!

ginny, I just remembered a couple of things I read on here:

making sure they are getting enough protein once on solids - I know they shouldn't be having too much, but night wakings can be a sign they're not getting enough for their age.

or certain foods too late can unsettle them - e.g. avocado, bananas.

don't know if either of these might help.

My ds went through a stage like this where I was feeding every 2 hours and I just knew that it wasn't out of hunger, but that it was a nice way to settle back to sleep. I had one hellish night where he woke at 2am and I just had to pat, shush etc back to sleep over and over and finally caved in when he woke at 5am. The following night, I refused that feed too, and he hasn't had a night feed for about 2.5mths now. My SIL had the same issue - got to 7 mths and refused to feed dd at night; after 3 nights she got the message. It seemed to make my ds better at feeding during the day, as he would wake hungry and feed properly at 7am rather than grazing. He does still have a 7oz feed at 10.30pm though, so I would echo the other posts on here that say do a dream feed and then see if she will go 5 hrs from 11pm onwards.

Hi Ginny - I would say, no, she doesn't need three feeds in the night. She probably doesn't even need one. She just wants them. And now its up to you to decide whether to carry on feeding on demand, or not.

Both my babies were quite a lot bigger than average and I bf them both. By 6 months with both I was feeling tired and wanted some unbroken sleep. The big thing that made the difference for me was moving them out of my bedroom and into their own room at 6 months (as per SIDS guidelines). Plus a little tiny bit of controlled crying (subject of countless other threads). They both continued to thrive without nightfeeds and are still taller and heavier - not fat, just taller - than average at 6 and 3 years old.

I would say at 6 months, only because this is my experience with both of them, that I could only reasonably expect them to sleep from 8pm to 5.30am without a feed. But gradually this stretched out to 6.30 or 7.00am by the time they were about 12 months.

I got round it in the first year by going to bed at 10pm or earlier and if they work early, got them into bed with me for an early feed at 5.30 or 6.00 or whenever they woke up and sometimes we would all doze off again for an hour or so. On a good day!

Poor you, you must be desperate for a good night - I would also try a dream feed at 10-11ish and see how you go - she might go through until 6 ish but at least you get a good stretch uninterupted.

Hello ginnypotter! First of all, sorry to hear that you are so tired, I sympathise with you, my DD is nearly 10 months and still wakes up once or twice at night sometimes (occassionally i get a full night but not regularly).

I think the night wakings are hunger I'm afraid. DD woke 3 times a night until she was 9 months when the wakings got less. This corresponded with a huge increase in her appetite for both food and milk during the day. If she eats badly during the day she wakes more at night so I'm constantly offering her breast feeds and snacks of cheese etc to top her up!

Also, I know it is hard when you are dying to get back to bed but could you try feeding for longer each time in the night so
she goes longer between the feeds?

With regard to feeding to sleep - I believe it is just a part of breastfeeding and should not be frowned upon. It is a lovely way to go off to sleep and does not mean that you are the cause of your LO waking up at night.