DH and I disagree about how to handle 5yo sleep problem

[Hobbes39]

I need some help... our DS is 5 (nearly 6) and has never been great at settling to sleep, but has had phases of being fine, then phases of being awful... which don't appear to have any pattern to them. The last couple of nights (boiling hot!) he's actually been really good going to sleep, but tonight, he's been awful again, and my DH and I are struggling as we have differing opinions on how to deal with it and I guess I need an outside perspective....(I am prepared to be told DH is right, but just need a better strategy as to how to solve this - usually take it in turns to do 'bedtime' so we need to agree a strategy to be consistent...)

So anyway, what's been happening is that DS has a routine, which admittedly timings aren't like clockwork as it's the holidays (but when they were stricter during term time he was having these issues too) where he has bath, 3 stories with some milk, teeth, then bed. We try to have lights out by 8pm, it is sometimes 8:30 since holidays started tho. Some nights he plays a bit in his bed with his soft toys, but quietly, and then settles down and is asleep approx 30mins later....but other nights he says he's scared as soon as you tuck him in and are walking out the door (having been fine 2 seconds earlier) and says he wants more lights on etc... now Its really not dark in his room, there's daylight that comes in round the curtains and he has a bedside night light, so if anything I think it's TOO light in his room, but DH will give in and put hall light on too; I think thats just pandering. DS says he's scared, but can't say what of, and then says he can't get to sleep (after approx 30seconds of lying in his bed). For a while we tried to combat this by allowing him to look at his books in bed, but then that became drawing / writing stories in bed and while he was quiet while doing these things he wasn't actually setting down to sleep until more like 10/10:30 which i feel is way too late for a 5 year old, so Ive stopped allowing that. Now we just have the battle where he shouts down for us saying that he's scared, which if I ignore it turns into crying. The things is my DH has a v different perspective on this from me - he used to struggle to get to sleep as a child (still does to an extent!) . I love my sleep, always have.
I suspect DS is saying he's scared, asking what to dream of, needing xyz, wanting lights on basically for attention... my DH thinks he is genuinely struggling to sleep / scared and so DH gets caught up doing xyz and chatting to him / reasoning with him to get him to settle, which can take a good hour if not more.

I'm not as patient and so start out trying to do the 'it's sleep time' quietly and calmly, but then when that doesn't work I get increasingly frustrated and half the time I end up being really grumpy with him and crossly telling him to stop being silly, say that i take away toys if he doesn't stop shouting for us etc and then he will sometimes go to sleep, but other times ends up in tears, then DH goes up and chats to him / gives in and again he will go to sleep, but either way it ends up being pretty late when that happens regardless of which 'method'.

DH is cross at me for being too harsh, I'm frustrated at him for giving in. The answer probably lies in between, but I can't work our where. I'm 31w pregnant with twins, which is definitely effecting my patience and my fear level about this as I'd dearly love for DS to get into a better sleep habit before they arrive, but is not looking good is it?

Help!

Getting cross just increases anxiety in children. I suggest that you put on some audio books for him and try that for a while.

Resist the hall light thing as too much light affects the brain chemicals.

Make sure the two hours before bedtime are devoted to calmness and ensure that DS has a chance to talk his day through...that hopefully will get rid of any worries he may have.

We are still sitting in the bedroom rubbing 5yo’s back til she falls asleep, takes max 15 mins. I know she doesn’t need it, but I think she struggles with the finality of the end of the day and separating from us. And if she’s going to talk to us it’s always then.
I hear what the PP said about 2 hours of calm before bed, but in the real world who has time for that?!
I’m with your husband, just give him what he needs for now, especially with a new sibling on the way. Sit with him if it’s what he wants. It will probably be easiest for all of you.

Ours went through a dreadful phase at that age.

Up and down like a bloody yo-yo. We tried every trick in the book, and what finally worked was letting her fall asleep in our bed with a small nightlight.

Probably not recommended, but it worked. 2yrs later sleeps fine in her own bed.

I still sing my nearly 6 yr old to sleep. The time he won't need or want me to do that will be here soon enough so I really don't begrudge him 20 minutes.

One of mine has always been a terrible sleeper since birth. We have found limiting screens from quite a bit before bed has helped. He also was saying he was scared and we realised he was seeing some alarming you tube ads, so completely banned you tube for a time. Basically we were very careful that he wasn’t seeing anything remotely worrying that would trigger bad thoughts at night. We also tried to exhaust him physically, if he’s not burning enough energy he’s not tired enough. Also, I’ve read that children who sleep badly shouldn’t have anything caffeinated or too stimulating after midday.
I must say in general I’m more with your dh and would certainly provide some light if he was scared, fears can be very real and much more difficult to rationalise when you are tiny.

Tanks for your reply @HennyPennyHorror - I agree that me getting cross isn't helping either of us... what's frustrating is that nothing seems to help tho...
@bsmirched &
@CaledonianSleeper - I would happily do 15/30mins of ANYTHING if it worked... I've sat in his room in the chair next to the bed to stop him being scared, but he then wants to talk to me / ask me what to dream about and if I answer him he then starts chatting about something else etc, if I just sit there quietly it sometimes works in about an hour, but I'm sure my presence actually keeps him awake as I've been there over an hour and a half later...🙈
I should add, I know he is tired - he s active and he has loads of fresh air, particularly at the moment, and I can see he's fighting sleep, but don know how to get him to accept it..? He gets plenty of attention from me as I am self employed and work when he's at school, and have taken my mat leave early to cover the school holidays, so it's not like he's started of attention during the day. I just don't know what to do to get him to sleep when he should... we wake him up pretty much every morning - he'd otherwise sleep in until 9am if we didn't and I try to make sure he's awake by 7:30 and up down for breakfast by 8, as for school that's as late as he can be...

Oh and meant to add - when DH turns the hall light on, it does pacify DS, but then he's awake for ages afterwards still and he then asks about what to dream about etc... and I think is likely the room is too light (with the hall light he can actually see to read it's that light!) to allow him to drift off... also when Dh 'chats' to him - it's for AGES - can be well over an hour...

How is he feeling about the imminent arrival of the twins?

Dd4 was very anxious in the run up to ds arriving, even though she was also excited and happy. She was worried about me going into hospital, worried about what it would be like when the baby was here etc. Most of this played out at bedtime and she’s only just starting to settle down now ds is 2 months.

Possibly ensure he has an opportunity each day to discuss any worries so they’re not pent up at bedtime.

Sounds like my dd. I let her do what she wants as long as she's in bed and has no tech. So, talking to her teddy or 'reading' a book mainly, sometimes I hear her singing. She can sometimes do this for an hour or more before dropping off, but I figure it is teaching her how to sleep longer term. I also think it's a good way to process what she has learnt that day. We used to have the whole 'I'm scared' stuff too.

Dd also discovered sleep sounds on Alexa so she puts that on quietly and it has really helped with the fear.

@Gillian1980 - he's excited - but yes, I think a little anxious - I've been struggling these last few weeks as I've got more enormous - he's been so good about it, and we talk a lot about it and we try to explain everything to him so he isn't worried about something he doesn't understand. I think the fact that they could arrive anytime is quite a hard thing for him to get his head around, so we've been trying to make sure we have told him what happens with who will keep an eye on him etc if they decide to come early. I do wonder if tonight might have been different from the last couple of nights cos I had a moment when I felt faint today (low bp) and had to sit down when we were walking along the street to a friends house. I explained to him not to worry, and what it was, but it could v well have made him anxious as he is a caring wee soul. On the other hand, it could also be because he was at that friends house this aft, without me, so wanted more attention at bed time...? I don't know...

My 7yo DS has to fall asleep with the light on - has done for years. We just switch it off when we come up to bed as he’s well gone by then. It doesn’t affect his sleep at all - we’d have a fight on our hands without it which would just mean less sleep and a later night for all concerned. What’s your concern with leaving a light on for him?

You say he’ll sleep until 9am if you let him (not jealous...not jealous at all...OK, maybe a bit jealous...mine never sleep past 6am...). Are you putting him to bed too early at 8pm? It sounds like his natural sleep cycle is possibly a bit different to what you’re trying to encourage. Try more like a 9pm bedtime, with the light on, and he might settle more quickly? Sit with him by all means (with your DH on this one, sorry, especially if there’s family history of sleep difficulties) but respond to every daft question with a very boring, whispered, ‘Sssshh...sleepy time,’ so you’re supporting but not engaging. Gradually do this closer to the door then outside the door, if you’re able.

Definitely don’t threaten punishments like removing toys. You need to reduce anxieties around sleep, not increase them.

Also - how much does he actually play in his room? Increase the amount he plays in there if the answer is ‘not much - he mostly has his toys elsewhere’. If you increase how comfortable and secure he feels in his own bedroom through play, you may increase his feeling of security in there while he’s falling asleep.

@TheDuckSaysMoo - yes, sounds similar... maybe I should go back to letting him draw & write stories - I was just worried it was getting later and later that he was finishing what he was doing (and effected him the next day) so I worried it was keeping him awake, but maybe he just needs that...?

Drawing and writing might be a bit too active - I'm not sure though. Someone on here might know. But I'd definitely go with the least stress for all option.

@ElphabaTheGreen - I guess the problem I have with putting the light on is that it doesn't actually make him go to sleep...? It's just the start of the things he asks for when he gets this way..if that makes sense? I prob didn't explain v well.

He loves playing in his room as all his Lego is in there (we keep it upstairs as dog would eat it otherwise 😂🙈) so he definitely doesn't have a problem with his room.

I'll not take away toys again, I do feel bad, I'm just getting desperate as to be honest I go to bed once he finally settles at the moment!

I think I'll give audio books a go, as haven't tried that so far...

My 4 yr old has become very stressed sleeping on her own, worrying about stuff like are the doors locked, windows closed. We have given in and she falls asleep in minutes in our bed. I think with the upheaval from leaving nursery and getting ready for school I am just going to support her and not stress her out more.

Sorry @ElphabaTheGreen / meant to answer about whether 8 is too early.. The thing is, when we've let him (which isn't often) he sleeps in til 9am because he's still awake at 10pm... while I know I'm lucky he's not a v early riser too, this says to me that he needs approx 11-11.5hrs a night, hence why we would ideally get him to sleep by 8:30 so he's naturally up by 7:30. He is exhausted come 4pm a lot at the moment as he's up late.

Furry nuff.

Can you give him a finite list of his requests (agreed with your husband, with no additions so you’re both on the same page) so he knows when he’s not going to get any further with the bargaining? E.g. DS - you can have the light on, one book and one question about your dreams, then I’m just going to sit here in silence until you go to sleep.

I'd let him lie in until he naturally wakes for a few days.

If he has been on average going to sleep at 9pm and waking at 7:30pm he's probably built up a sleep deficit meaning that he's overtired.

Once he has caught up on sleep I'd then bring bedtime to 7pm. 7pm is apparently when melatonin (sleep hormone) peaks for children and cortisol (stress hormone) is at its lowest so 7pm is optimum bedtime.

I agree with you OP in that if at all possible he needs to learn to go to sleep on his own. It's a really important skill and one that seems to carry through to adulthood.

Three bedtime stories sounds a lot and must take a long time if being read properly. I'd reduce it to two. Noticeable changes like this will need to be discussed with your DC in advance with a conversation in the middle of the day about getting bedtime to work better. When talked about at a different time of day can your DC offer any ideas?

HI I am in a similar boat and read your post with interest. My 4 year old has slept brilliantly since 4.5months but every since the conclusion of preschool and preparing for primary school, the nightmares began. At first I would simply walk her back to bed quick cuddle then leave very boring very quiet, then the wakings became more frequent and after the first wakeup I would gradually get more and more annoyed and yes would end up acing cross even shouting...the problem is she falls back to sleep no problem but I don't and it sets us up for a really bad day of me being tired grumpy and taking it out on her. We then noticed she was creating pretend nightmares and she even admitted it was just so she could get a cuddle - well that one threw me! How do you handle that? We've tried taking away daytime privileges, controlled crying after telling her to go back to bed and more reecently I get so worked up by the third wakeup I just start shouting. I know it's all bad for sleep anxiety but Im only human and her nightly wakings are having an impact on my being a good Mother during the day time. Now we hardly ever play energetic games like tig/hide and seek and sporadically manage a game of footie when I'm feeling a bit more myself but I've tried reasoning with her, explaining all this but naturally at 4 she doesnt understand. I even followed another parents suggestion of waiting til she's back asleep then wake her up, get her to sit quietly on sofa while I read a book, no tv, no talking no attention and after 20mins of discussing things with tears streaming down my face sent her back to bed but it only worked for a day or so...theres plenty more stories but I think Ive said enough already...the thing is when I return to bed myself I have real issues getting back to sleep - fast heartbeat, hunger, frustration anger all builds up and I either end up crying to sleep or getting up for the day (which is worse of course) - please help - turning old before my time and we only have one child - I really need my sleep back!