Starting sleep training tonight - what should we expect?

[crazychemist]

Hi there,

DD is 30 months, until now has been breastfed to sleep every night and I’ve decided this really has to stop.

There is some background in that she had very severe obstructive sleep apnoea that was corrected with surgery 2 months ago. Until this point it was necessary to monitor her 24/7 and I was desperate for her to get any sleep that she could as she was really suffering, so we didn’t want to change anything about her routine until that was sorted.

I’m happy to continue bfing (although I’d quite like to stop before her birthday in September)

The plan is to start some sleep training tonight. She’s used to DH doing bath time, so I’m thinking that basically I say goodnight then, and he gets her into pjs and into her room and stays with her till she’s asleep. (He’s having a nap now so he’s fresh, and is off work for the next 3 weeks, so this seems like the best possible timing!)

She’s going to pitch an absolute fit. I suspect she’s going to scream for hours before she gives in out of exhaustion.

The plan is that once she gets used to going to sleep with him there instead of me, that he’ll do gradual withdrawal method, or if that doesn’t work he’ll just read to her in the evenings until she nods off (which I have the feeling is what my dad used to do for me until I was about 6!)

I’d really love any advice anyone has on offer. I’m going to feel like a total monster for “abandoning” her (she’s going to be with DH! Not alone! But it’s how I’m feeling) but I’m hoping it gets her into healthier sleeping habits in the long run and gives me a bit more flexibility too.

Any thoughts? Suggestions? Anyone been there recently and can tell me how it went/goes?

Have you tried discussing it with her?

I weaned my DD at a similar age and explained it to her. We also used a book, I think it was called 'Sally Weans From Night Nursing'. It was horribly American but it did the job.

She's 2.5 and perfectly capable of understanding what's going on. Please don't just go cold turkey without explaining it to her.

I’ve tried discussing it with her, this is how we handled things like her starting at nursery, potty training etc, we talked and we read stories so she had time to get used to it. But when I try to talk to her about it she just says “no” or gets really upset that it’s mentioned at all.

DH thought she wasn’t ready to give up bedtime feed so I fed her to sleep last night and then he stayed in with her. She had an almighty tantrum from 4am to 5am, but other than that it went well.

Not going well today. She was exhausted from not sleeping well last night so fell asleep at 6pm (far too early for her generally, and she hadn’t had any dinner). She woke up at 8pm and has been screaming ever since. DH is in with her, but it’s been 25 minutes and it doesn’t sound like she’s calming at all....

Do I eventually go in? She sounds completely hysterical and very very distressed. It doesn’t seem right to leave her like this. Is this normal??? I know some amount of crying is normal with sleep training, but this really doesn’t seem right.

I'd actually take yourself out (as in, go for a walk or... somewhere. Hide even.) about half an hour before they go up for a bath. I think at that age, saying goodnight is enough of a "mummy's going to leave you now" statement to upset them. When we do it, I go and walk the dog and give ds a kiss but don't say I'm going out/goodnight. Dh says he does go to sleep better that way. As for tonight, no suggestions sorry, I'm too soft! If you do go in, can both of you stay with her, so that her dad is still reassuringly present?

I can advise on night weaning but not any type of sleep training as I personally don't agree with it (and have no experience of it so can't help). I'll bow out of the thread and others with experience of it may be able to help.

Are you sleep training of night weaning? If it’s night weaning your husband could try giving her a drink when he goes in. If she’s used to getting milk at night her body may be expecting the calories so if she’s awake at times you would normally breastfeed her I would get him to give her a drink of milk, then gradually reduce/replace with water.

@M0reGinPlease please don’t bow out! I’m very open to alternatives! I’d love to hear how things worked out for you without sleep training, I really didn’t want to do it but feel like I’m running out of options if I ever want to sleep.

I went up after 90 minutes last night, there was no way DH was going to be able to settle her, she was completely hysterical. So a complete disaster basically, maximum upset for her, but also no progress on sleep. She was hungry having not had dinner, so I had to give her food, at which point there was no way she was going back to sleep by any method. I was up with her till just after 2am, when she finally went to sleep.

I would be open to either sleep training so she goes to sleep without me or night weaning. Both need to happen at some point. We had originally decided to work on her going to sleep without me, but DH prefers to work on night weaning first, so what we decided was that whatever time she went to sleep, he would come and sleep with her instead of me doing it and he would deal with night wakings.

I sympathise. I stopped b/f my toddler to sleep around this age. I just read her a story and lay down in bed with her until she fell asleep. I still do that. Initially she messed about for a bit but now she’s asleep within 5/10 mins. My husband does the same thing if he’s putting her to bed. I’m working up to eventually not lying with her but I quite like it now! If it’s any consolation, it’s only about six months ago and she doesn’t remember breast feeding at all!

I sympathize too and this is probably in my future (18 month old DS has never fallen asleep without boob and nurses all night). However, I don't think anything of that leaves a child hysterical can be the right way and there's a reason it isn't sitting right with you.

I really think at 2.5 you have to have a respectful discussion with her before taking away the greatest comfort she has ever known.

Would it go better for you to reduce the nursing - I have a friend who had success with explaining they would only nurse until she counted to ten, for example, and then trying to cuddle to sleep. She didn't forcibly remove her at ten, she just said they'd try again next time and it became like a challenge. Even if you totally refuse the breast, would she be better with you cuddling/ comforting her than your DH? It just seems a huge change to take you out of the picture completely.

There is a Facebook group called the beyond sleep training project that is great for support with dealing with sleep issues gently, I can recommend posting there for some advice.

I think @upthewolves has just put it perfectly. I think you're trying to make too drastic a change too soon.

With my DD I started by stopping feeding her to sleep. So she had a breastfeed as usual but went into her cot awake and I lay with her and held her hand until she fell asleep. Once we'd cracked that (this whole process took months by the way) I told her if she woke up in the night, I would cuddle her, hold her, whatever she needed, but mummy's milk was running out and we weren't going to have it at night time any more, we were saving it for bedtime. Eventually we got to the point where she was having one small feed before bed. I think this is where we really cracked it as I'm pretty sure due to this one small feed that my milk started to dry up. Then I said we were having milk for five more nights and then it would have run or. Each night I said 'four more nights' 'three more nights' etc. By the time we had two feeds left I remember sitting down with her and she just looked at me and said 'can I get in my cot?' and that was it. I never breastfed her again and she never asked for it again. Over the following few weeks her sleep got better and better, if she woke I wouldn't need to get her out of cot, it got to the point where I could just go in an give her a little pat and leave. She started sleeping through the night and has been ever since.

As PP has said you need to really (and repeatedly) talk this through with her. It's a huge change to her life. Just simply sending your DH in won't cut it without major upset for her.

Also, I'd use cows milk carefully. I used to give my DD a cup before bed, before our last breastfeed, so when we stopped the final breastfeed she had that instead while we read a book. But none during the night. I eventually weaned her off that too- she's 3.5 now and doesn't need a cup of milk before bed.

You need to look at this as a long process and take baby steps. This is one of the biggest changes you'll make to your DD's life and if you can get her on board with it and take it slowly she may surprise you.

As long as you accept she’ll scream and can cope with that, it will be fine. You just have to be united on it.

@cherrypavlova I knew she’d scream. The first night she woke at 4am and DH was with her and she was angry and cried for nearly an hour, but it wasn’t continuous and she did go back to sleep. She obviously wanted to go back to sleep. Last night was different, she was hugely distressed and there was no sign of it abating. I don’t think I can put her through that, while I’m sure there are many babies/toddlers that can handle crying it out,I don’t think she’s one of them.

I had thought she might settle for DH. I know that she will settle for my DMum if she wakes as my DMum used to look after her two days a week and would sleep in with her after I’d gone to work, no issues there, so I really didn’t think there would be this level of distress for her. I don’t want to ask my DMum to do overnights though, that isn’t fair on her and she struggles with sleep herself and my DDad wouldn’t like to be alone for lots of nights in a row.

@M0reGinPlease, I just don’t see how to do that bit! If I try to stop feeding her before she goes to sleep she is really angry and wakes all the way up. I’d be very happy to do that method but I jut don’t see how it works with a resistant toddler. I’m very happy to try any plan, but I can’t go on how things are. Getting two hours sleep makes me pretty crap at my job and people aren’t going to keep cutting me slack forever. So you fed her, put her in her cot and then......? How much resistance was there the first night? If I know what is normal I feel like I can handle it. You say it took months, can you talk me through what you did?

@upthewolves, I’d be happy to try cuddling her to sleep, but I think if she knows it’s an option she’s going to fight for it. I thought it would be easier for her if it wasn’t right in front of her nose. I know she can sleep without it for naps when I’m not around, but has never done so if I’m present.

I really don’t want to be cruel to her. I’d be very happy to take another route if I can see that it might work. But I really do need to get some sleep!

@M0reGinPlease I have ordered that book (and a couple of others). Hopefully it’ll help whatever strategy we end up taking.

So you fed her, put her in her cot and then......?

Explained it was time to lie down and go to sleep. It took a while before she got it, I'm not trying to oversimplify it but I was calm and patient and persisted. You've had your milk, there isn't any more, it's time to close your eyes and lie still. You can have a cuddle but there isn't any more milk etc.

I originally said I couldn't help you any further because our DD's sound different- I think my daughter was ready to wean and she more or less accepted it with not too much fuss. BUT this was after lots of conversations with her about it. What is your DD's response when you try to discuss it with her? The book really helps I think. To be honest I can't remember if there were tears- there probably were but at no point was anyone hysterical. The key for me was really talking it through with her and her understanding what would be happening. That I would always be there at night time if she needed me, but the milk was running out.

I think you need to separate the two issues you have. Forget her sleep and sort the weaning. Sleep with follow. You can't change almost three years of all she's know overnight. Sorry, but I think you need to accept that if you want to do it gently. If not, as I said before, you need different advice.

Sleep will follow

I agree with making gradual changes. You could try cutting feeds short saying "Mummy is running out of milk, let's cuddle while I make some more." Then repeat, gradually stretching out the gaps. If she's really protesting then try unlatching and then relatching immediately on demand - the idea is that she gets comfortable the idea that there will be milk later and so is able to relax without it. Once she's got a bit more used to this you could try Jay Gordon's night weaning - a key principle of which is that you don't withdraw your comforting presence.

Ok @m0reGinPlease and @UnaofStormhold, I think my original plan isn’t going to work without significant distress, and I don’t want to go down that route. So I think I’ll try the following:

1. Start with the books and keep talking to her about it. So far she’s just said “no” or made it clear she doesn’t want to talk about it if I try to speak to her about weaning, but I’ll keep persisting.

1. After a week or so (do you think this is long enough?) I’ll try to get her to cuddle to sleep with me.

I think step 2 is where it’s going to go wrong, but I’ll give it a go. Honestly, I’m not a monster and I don’t want DD to be miserable, but I just can’t keep managing on the amount of sleep I’m getting, and if DH doesn’t ever settle her then there’s no way to ever get a a break!

I do remember that hideous feeling that the sleep deprivation would never end.. But it will.

Have you tried asking her what might help her get to sleep? Granting requests for another nightlight or more cuddly toys can make a surprising difference if it's something that they've asked for.

If you want to try getting her to accept being settled by dad one way is to do settling together and very gradually shift the balance until he's a familiar bedtime presence and you can start to nip out for longer and longer .

I sometimes think changing bedtime comforts it's like getting a child to try a new food - keep introducing the new pattern but never push it, and one day they'll surprise you by being happy with it.

So is the issue that she's still waking a lot at night and won't settle without boob?

We night weaned at about 26months. We read a book about for a few weeks before, talked about it in lead up. I still did bed but there was no bf once we were in bedroom. He started sleeping through pretty quickly once we did it. We had tried this earlier but he got super upset (screamed/shouted at his dad). There were signs he was ready - like just needing a cuddle to go back to sleep in night.
Keep talking about it, acknowledge how she’s feeling and make gradual changes. You will get there!

It is normal. And so hard.
The thing is, she’s having to deal with two losses simultaneously- she can’t feed and you’re not there. Is there no way for you to be the one to get her to sleep without feeding? My DD is 2.5 and I’ve started telling her there’s no milk in there when I don’t want her to feed.

Thank you so much for all your advice.

She won’t resettle at night for me without a feed. But i know she can do it for others because of naps on days when I work (some at nursery, some with my DH and some with my DMum who also sometimes resettles her in the early morning as I leave for work early).

DH has been quite keen on continuing with him trying to resettle at night, but he thinks I should stick to feeding to sleep in the meantime. He says when she wakes at night he can tell straight away if she’s going to settle for him or not... and he seems to be right. So I’ve been putting her to bed as usual, then I creep out and DH cosleeps with her. He knocks on the wall to wake me if he thinks she’ll need me. To my surprise, this has been working quite well. I’m mostly going in once per night, it has been twice once but also one night without any at all! And I’m much happier that I’m not leaving her to cry.

I’m going to keep reading those books to her about night weaning, and maybe in a week or two I won’t have to go in as much. Then I guess we just have to wean her off snuggling up with DH!

Thank you all so much for your advice and support. I know I haven’t followed exactly what any of you have said, but I found it all really helpful and I felt like I wasn’t trying to tackle this alone.