getting to end of tether with 15 mth old and bedtime - HELP PLEASE!!

[cloudberry]

OUr 15 moth old ds is seriously high maintenance, needed constant physical contact from the word go, slings etc etc. I couldn't put him on the floor till really quite recently and certainly not to most other people. All this has vastly improved but we are defeated on the sleep at bedtime thing. He wants to be held to go to sleep - on chest or in arms. I stopped bfing him at 10.5 months but up to then bfed him to sleep and it could take hours sometimes. My ds gets up at 5.00 so I wasn't prepareed to have huge battles over sleep and we don't have a west wing to put him in to scream it out, and anyway I can't get my head round cc. He co-slept with us - out of desperation rather than through choice initially, but has been in his own bed since Feb or March. Sorry for the waffle but want to give some background.

I've been checking threads and tho many are quite useful, none present quite our problem hence this new one. I'm just praying that someone can offer some suggestions. I know about the no cry sleep solution and have the book. The problem is that there is no sign of improvement dispite roughly doing this which is what I was doing instinctively before I'd heard about it. My dh has been putting him to bed for the last fortnight while I do our dd as we reckon that he's taking the piss with me but tonight my dh reached the end of his patience with him. I've been upstairs with my ds since 8.15, he's knackered but seems to be fighting sleep. When eventually about 20 minutes ago I could see that he was going to give in, I've had to stand by his cot stroking his hair and saying shhhh. If I moved away to the other side of the room he immediately started crying. I haven't eaten yet and my dh has gone up to bed and taken our ds into bed with him and guess what ... Silence.

Our bedtime routine isn't great and I'm very aware that I need to concentrate on that. I'm also wondering about daytime sleeps. He never slept at all from a couple of weeks old till only a few months ago, well maybe 4 or 5 months ago I can't remember now. My dd is 2.5 and has an afternoon nap so I'v got them into a routine of them having their naps at the same time, meaning that ds is only getting one. Is it possible that he might be better with a morning one too?

I'm really sorry to be so long-winded and as I said really hope someone can help.

No idea if this is the solution but given what you say I'd definitely try a morning sleep (he could be overtired and I found that sleep encouraged more sleep). Also, if someone was strking my hair and saying shh, I'd find it really tricky to sleep. It was like DS had to have some space to relax, and he objected at first but finally learned that bed time meant sleep. In our case, sleep didn't come naturally and he had to be shown how to do it. Don't know if that helps but I share your frustration with lack of sleep - difficult stuff.

Cloudberry you poor thing. When you say he has an afternoon nap, how late is that?. My dd is now 15 months and only has one nap a day straight after lunch and if I let her sleep later than 3pm then I know it will take her much longer to settle when she goes to bed at 7pm. I have done controlled crying when we have had problems and it has worked, sorry not familar with the no cry solution. You say he wants to be held, would it be worth trying a before bed cuddle time on the sofa or somewhere quiet , perhaps just the two of you or DH for 30 mins and then make it clear that now it's bedtime.

I find that sleep definately begets sleep and when the naps are skewed going to sleep and staying asleep at night goes to pot. Try implementing a nap morning and afternoon and stick to it religiously for a couple of months until it becomes what he expects and he is naturally tired, out of habit, when naptime arrives. You already know that whatever you do to help him sleep you will have to go on doing including those times in the middle of the night when he wakes up, we all waken briefly at different points during the night but if he's used to you being there when he falls asleep he wont be able to go back to sleep on his own. So be very careful about what routines you set up. Good luck, am sleep deprived myself, it is hell.

PeachesMclean, thank you for responding to my plead! I know what you mean about the stroking and shhing but he will only be quiet and lie down if I'm touching him, which gets exhausting in its own way. My dh in total exhasperation this evening told me I could deal with it on my own from now own as "ds seems to be obessessed with me". As soon as I touch him he quietens down especially if I cuddle him. This is all very sweet now but how long will it continue, for how many years .....?!! I'm interested that you also think that the morning sleep might be worth a try and wonder if anyone has anything else to add.

does he have a 'cuddly'? something you could hold as you hold him that could then substitute you when you go?

Cloudberry, I could have written your post! dd is 15 months, also very high need and can barely be put down. also have a dd 2.10 and so like you have got them both to have a nap after lunch - about 12ish. I know in my heart dd needs a mini nap about 11am and dd1 could go through till about 1pm but for my sanity I need them to sleep at the same time. Night time she needs to be cuddled off to sleep, it takes up to an hour and half and then she'll be up a few times in the evening, also only sleeps well in our bed!! Sadly I have no advice that works really, dd1 was exactly the same, and although we tried all sorts including no cry sleep solution nothing worked other than time - it wasn't until dd got to about 20 months and was able to understand more and also understand the reward chart! we did have to do rapid return to bed when she was about 2 but nothing worked until she was old for us to be able to explain what was happening and why we were doing it. so major sympathies and i'll be watching this thread to see if there is any other good advice. [hugs]

Gradual Withdrawal? I have always found this easier on me. However, I think you have to accept that there will be crying. I am sceptical about 'No Cry Sleep Solution'. I think it has some good ideas, but I don't really believe the 'No Cry' bit. A baby/toddler will generally protest if you change what they are used to.

So, DH hasn't got anywhere in two weeks and he's having a flap? DS is used to you because you've been the main carer for most of his life, doesn't mean you've got the magic wand to sort out the long term problem, but DH is delegating responsibility. Hmm, lucky you.

Can you concentrate on day time sleeps for a little while, to get him used to the idea of going to sleep in his own bed on his own? At least day time sleeps are at a time when you're less frantic, especially establishing the morning nap a couple of hours after he wakes? I like the sound of 4Jen's cuddles, might work, though DS has never been keen on cuddles much to my disappointment so never got to try that theory!

Thank you 4jen and Malaleche. Should have said that thank god he is now really pretty good once we've got him to sleep in the evening and for that I am sooo grateful. He goes to bed in the afternoon at about 1.0 and wakes at 3.00. Sometime if I'm late with lunch I'll let him sleep till 3.30 ish but am well aware of the dangers of letting them sleep too late in the afternoon! The thing is reading posts on mn, talking to friends and having my dd, I recognise the rods we have created and knew I was creating them while it was happening, but there truly didn't seem to be any other way of dealing with him within the contraints of a very small house, one dd who needs her sleep and has been prevented from getting to sleep herself in the evening by his screaming and dh who gets up so early (when he's really busy in the autumn he gets up at 4.30 so even more reason to keep the peace). I'm not trying to be difficult here, I'm just hoping that somebody will be able to come from another angle and again maybe the morning nap thing is a great place to start. The most frustating thing of all is that he's been down to my mother and is as good as gold with her. She has offered to have him again but there dosn't seem to be any point apart from giving us a break as we know he'll be fine with her and come back to us and away we go again. Oh the joys ......!

Poor you CB, I don't envy you. TBH I've only got the one so all my self righteous words go to pot when you've got another you're trying to get to sleep. I hope you get the help you need here.

Oddly enough he goes down to sleep in afternoon with almost now proble, but and it is a big but, he sleeps in the pram (huge old-fashioned thing). I started him in it so that I could wheel him up and down the road to sleep. He now wil pretty much go to sleep without wheeling about. I plonk him in and shove him under a tree. Occasionally I have to shh and stroke but not often. I'm too nervous to try him in his bed during the day in case it dosn't work, and something has just occurred to me, maybe it's an association, or rather a negative association with his cot, something I've seen referred to so many timef here but never made a connection with. What d'you reckon?

He is probably just loving getting your mum's full attention and adoration and that is why he is good for her but you have your dd to consider as well, don't feel bad about it.

Wow, dunno about a negative association with the cot but possible I suppose. Try him tomorrow perhaps. Sleeping under a tree in the midde of the day sounds lovely, can I have his pram when he's out of it?

maybe you could try putting him in his pram to sleep at night and see if he settles himself in that and then work on the cot in the day for nap.

If it can be made safe that is...

Lol at "He is probably just loving getting your mum's full attention and adoration" 4jen! If you knew my mum! She's as tough as old boots tho not unkind, which is probably why the little blighter behaves for her!! Interesting suggestion about sleeping in the pram at night. I've got a harness on it so that he can't fall/climb out though I'd need to think about whether I'd be happy to let him sleep with them on all night. It'd mean he couldn't turn over at all. Good one though so thank you.

Sounds like my mum, she managed to get dd off her dummy during the day and drinking out of a cup after I had been trying to do both for ages. I still think they love the attention though even if its a tougher regime!. Is the pram detachable from the frame like a carry cot, if so you could put it inside the his cot.

I think it might be I'll have a look tomorrow.

Just seen the time, off to bed now. let us know how you get on.