3 month old 5am waker - never to return to sleep :(

[Egypt]

any advice? last 2 nights dd has woken at 5am ish and NOT GONE BACK TO SLEEP arrrrrrgggghhhhh. am feeding her ebm at 7pm, (so i can see she is getting a good feed - on the breast she takes little when tired). she sleeps fine til 11 or 12 or 1 or 2 if i am lucky! has another feed then wakes up at 5 never to return to slumber land. what am i doing wrong? she does have a big feed. do i need to give her another bottle to make sure she's taking enough? because don't think i can express 2 bottles per day and i dont really want to give formula again, just out of preference. Previously, she has always gone back to sleep after all her feeds until 7 or 8 am. I am shattered!

Egypt - please do not assume that they take more from a bottle than the breast. I personally would breastfeed before she goes to bed because then baby can take whatever hindmilk they want (fatty milk). Expressed milk does not account for that - baby gets whatever.

Make sure that you keep her sucking well at her last feed if you think she is sleepy. Milk transfer from the breast though can be much faster than a bottle so she will get more than you think. Personally again, I would take her into bed at night, latch her on and go back to sleep.

thanks mears. have used ebm through experimenting and find that she always sleeps longer this way. i understand what you are saying about breastfeeding though, and would much rather do that. been told by hv that the ebm i am giving her is of a better quality than my evening milk, as i expressed it in the day when i was not 'run down and tired'. Not sure this is true. She also said that it's harder work for a baby to take from the breast than the bottle, and therefore she isn't taking enough, from wearing herself out. What's your opinion on this? Thank you for your reply.

Just a little thing Egypt, I wouldn't worry madly over something that's only happened for 2 days in a row. if it goes on for a week, start worrying! But these little glitches and changes happen all the time and rarely go on forever.

Sorry, I think your HV is talking pants.

Your breastmilk changes in constitution throughout the day certainly, but if you consider it fully, it would be best to give EBM expressed in the evening to get the appropriate milk at 7pm IYSWIM? When I expressed on my night shifts, my milk looked completely different than the milk I expressed during the day. My own thoughts are that nature provides the baby the milk that is needed at all times during the day and it is best not to interfere with that. The baby is the perfect regulator and I think that your Dd would probably have settled anyway after the 7pm feed. Do you express at that time by the way when you give the bottle? If not, your breasts are missing out on stimulation for that feed. Are you getting a sleep during the day? What do you do when your DD is sleeping? As long as you are doing night feeds, you should try and catch up on sleep when you can during the day. I bet you get on with other things .

Try her back on the breast and see what happens. Do you bath her at night? If so, switch it to the morning if she is too tired to feed after it. I always bathed at night I have to say and had no problems getting babes to sleep. I breastfed them to sleep after trheir bath then put them down (and no I did not have sleep problems as a consequence).

Look after yourself and make sure you are eating well. Have confidence in your ability to produce the milk your baby needs. You are doing a great job

Meant to add that at 3 months old, a baby does not tire themselves out trying to breastfeed. She is meant to be on the breast as nature intended, so I do not agree with HV.

Oh yes, and I totally agree with Mears. I spent ages doing a load of expressing, convinced it would 'help' until I got fed up with it and just fed dd instead. I found that feeding her improved my milk supply far more than expressing. I also found that if she was sleepy at the bedtime feed and didn't take as much as I'd have liked her to (she ALWAYS fell asleep on my breast at bedtime, did til she was well over a year and never had sleep problems til just lately, 22 months, for totally different reasons) I would give her a sleepy feed when I went to bed which satisfied my mind that she was 'topped up', stimulated my breasts too.

And babe, you're not doing anything wrong even if she does go on waking at 5am. It's awful - my much older dd2 does it sometimes but honestly it isn't you.

It may be worth going to sleep at around 8pm yourself for a bit. I know it sounds awful, and I couldn't face it myself when my sister suggested it, but remember that she IS little, and things will change and get better. And once again, it isn't you.

thank you so much everyone.

no i dont express mears, when i bottle feed her. i can't actually manage to get a good letdown anyway, without her feeding simulataneously! i do bath her and i like the routine of 'bath, feed, bed' and she is no problem to get to sleep after at all, so i dont really want to change the bathtime to the morning. i guess it takes time that's all. it has just been the last couple of nights in a row that she has done this, but recently it has happened on and off quite a bit. she is also feeding much more regularly (well, waking much more reg) in the second half of the night, and i find bf is the only way to get her back to sleep, so she must need feeding. i do try and sleep when she does in the day - like i've just had an hour now, although she is asleep still, and i am chatting on here! we are going out this eve and mil is babysitting, so she has to have a bottle really. however, i have to admit that also, the last 2 eves she has woken after an hour and just wanted comfort and a short top up from me. seemed to be the only way she would settle, so i am quite worried about leaving her tonight 'breastless' with mil!

i may just give her a sleepy feed at 10ish (if i've not gone to bed) just to 'top her up'. she does dream feed ok, have tried on the odd occasion, unless she is completely 'out of it'.

thanks again everyone. shall go back to breast tomorrow night for sure and STICK with it.

Egypt hope it's going better. FWIW I found the notion that bm is "thinner" in the evening to be pants too as Mears puts it. I think it comes from some babies needing to feed a lot more late afternoon/early evening. My DS1 and DD did, DS1 esp used to be constantly on the boob from about 5.30pm to 7 (not really, but that's how it seems!) but I decided in the end it was just becuse he was hot (it was july/aug) and he was thirsty, also tired. Not in other words a prob with my milk, so do try the breast again. 5am waking is grim, but there's not so much you can do at this age...stick to your routine and feeding as she wants and I'm sure it will settle down again. Hang in there!

Egypt,
I Thought the same as you, think I was given the impression from a baby whisperer program or GF that during the evening the milk supply isnt as nutritious and filling due to the stresses of the day. I was lead to belive that the milk in the morning was of a higher quality due to the rest your body had overnight.
I have started feeding dd ebm at 10.30pm. I bf at 7.30 and then put her down to bed, I then wake her up via a nappy change and give 6oz of ebm. I then offer her the breast and she goes to sleep after taking a little bit more. I then express whats left in my breast. I find that in the evening dd is so tired that she falls asleep after a bit on the breast due to the comfort and doesnt take enough. Even if I woke her again at 10.30, I found that she would drop off again soon if she hadnt been woken up enough then she wouldnt take enough and therefore would wake after 1 hour
e.g
With EBM
Feed 7.30 breast
Feed 10.00 with EBM and give breast
Feed 2.30-3 am breast

Without EBM
Feed 7.30 breast
Feed 10.00 breast
Feed 1.30am breast
Feed 4.00am breast

The thing that has helped us with the early morning rises was bringing her into bed. Originally I was against it as always thought I would roll over etc. But because its more of a doze than a light sleep im always aware of where dd is. She wakes at 6am and by bringing her into bed and latching her on shell sleep until 9am. If I feed her at 6am and put her back in her cot she wakes 30 mins after.I wouldve thought that if the baby falls asleep after a few minutes on the breast then all they have taken is foremilk which is why they would wakae again soon.

Hi. I'm sure I'm opening myself up to lots of critisism here,(in the nicest possible way of course) but thought I'd add my take on the whole sleep thing. DD2 is now 6 weeks old, and having had a 7 and a half year gap between babies the thought of sleepless nights scared the life out of me. Having had several nights with hourly waking for feeds (I'm breast feeding) I decided to try co- sleeping again (I did it with my other 2 for a while). It works like a dream. She will have a feed at about 8 o clock, fall asleep in my arms (I know...another no-no) and then I put her to bed at around 9 (I usually go with her as I'm falling asleep by this time!). She will then sleep until about 4am, wake for a feed and then go back to sleep again til around 6 or 7. This gives us both around 7 hours of uninterrupted sleep. I know people will say that I'm making a rod for my own back, but I had no problems with my first 2 babies sleep wise having had them in my bed too, and even if I have probs with this one, I will sort them out if and when they arise. IMO mothers are encouraged to adopt a strict routine which is too unflexible. I think we need to do what feels right for US (not HVs, our own mothers or anyone else) and go with the flow. My point is that I (and I know most other mums feel the same) cannot function without sleep, and if co sleeping is the only way to achieve this without having to resort to controlled crying etc then I think we should do it. There is far too much guilt heaped on us Mums about whether we're parenting rightly or not.

hi marmaladesun, yes i think you are right. when i think back to when dd was born i feel so cruel. i put her in her own room from day one and she must have felt so alone and strange. i wish i had just put her in bed with me for a few nights then in a moses basket with us. we did turn to the basket after 2 nights, on rec of my mw. she slept much better. poor little mite. however, the sleep has now (touch wood) turned into a much more patterned routine. she goes to bed around 7-7.30 after bf. wakes about 12.30 - 1am. then again 4.30/5am then again 7.40 on the DOT! very strange. but its much much better and if i go to bed at 9 i can get around 9 hours sleep in total - bliss :)

no more ebm - unless we go out of course! ;)