Can a baby be constantly overtired?

[Fsult1]

My baby boy has just turned 5 months. Since about 3 months onwards his sleep has been all over the place - I’m gonna put this down to the ‘4 month sleep regression’. But he never shows signs of feeling tired only until I try to put him to sleep with he start fussing. He barely naps during the day and at night doesn’t get the recommended amount for his age. Also when it comes to feeds he is incredibly fussy, always. I basically have to walk around and settle him before he has a feed and then sleeps. I’m starting to think maybe he is just constantly overtired as I really don’t think he’s getting enough sleep. Is that possible? How can I help it. Should I be timing the time he is awake between naps? I’m at my wits end here!! Any advice would help.

Yes, time how long he is awake. I would start settling to sleep once he has been awake 90 minutes in the morning and then 2 hours between other naps.
So up at 7, first nap 8.30. If he wakes at 10 then second nap at 12. He might need 3 or 4 naps if they are short. Then no more than 2-3 hours from last nap til bedtime.

No idea if they can be but it was what I came to the conclusion was what was going on with my DS. I stopped waiting for him to look tired as by the time he looked tired, he was over tired and just went on the idea he'd need a nap every 2ish hours after he woke up last. Took a while but seemed to help. He's now at nursery and a rubbish sleeper there and I've noticed he's back to being grizzly and over tired till I can get some decent naps in him over the weekend!
Maybe just do a week or so if focusing on naps and trying to get him a rough patten and see what he's like?

My DS (now 4) was a terrible sleeper until he was about 2. At night, he woke frequently wanting milk and wouldn’t resettle without a feed. He woke early, as early as 4am some mornings. Naps involved pushing in the buggy/rocking/singing/white noise for half an hour, and then he’d sleep maybe 20 mins. Excruciating hearing him wake up so soon after all that effort. I felt the same as you, that he was constantly tired and that if I could somehow extend the length of time he spent asleep he would be more settled when he was awake - he was a happy baby but cried a lot when he was tired, which then stopped him sleeping because he was crying, which because he was tired, and so on, and on....

I bought bloody dream sheep and swing seats and gro clocks and all sorts and they did not work, although my friends had some luck with slings for their fussy babies and my current baby loves hers (she’s a dream sleeper compared to her brother). I’d try one if you haven’t yet. Good luck

Thank you so much for the advice, il try timing it and see how it goes. His naps (when he has them) usually aren’t very long at all so il use the time frames you’ve mentioned. X

Yes I’ve found my one needs a feed before he goes back to sleep. Rarely he will go back to sleep without one. Not sure if it’s the best way to be doing things but when I try and put him to sleep he’ll constantly be looking for it. Guess he uses me as a pacifier in some way aswell.

What they said. From about 3.5 months until 5 months we’d need to get dDD in the sling after 90 minutes awake, put a scarf over her head and march around the neighbourhood. It was November through Jan! It rapidly improved after, I’m glad to report. But she was just chronically overtired - I’d gotten used to her falling asleep wherever and whenever, so the regression caught me unawares.

My DD was a dreadful sleeper from 3 months. She did 45 minute catnaps during the day, and either woke every hour in the night, or did one wake up but refused to go back to sleep in her cot for two or three hours. It was hell. Eventually we did controlled crying at 14 months (not suggesting you do, it's not for everyone and your DS is too young IMO) and that changed everything. Up until that point she was miserable because she was so tired all the time. She's 4 and sleeps like a log now, and the only time she's grumpy is when she's had a bad night. Sleep really is the trigger most of the time.

DS is 3 months and AT THE MOMENT sleeps fantastically at night. His day sleep is okay but he'll only sleep on me. But comparing the two, DS is such a happy baby, and DD was once the sleep deprivation stopped. It's definitely, definitely possible OP!

Also, does he have a routine? Even in her early, crappy days, DD was much happier with a very strict schedule. It worked, but I was a bit crazy about it because going off schedule really messed her up. I used to wake her up in the mornings if she wasn't up by a certain time, and do the same for her naps. It helped a lot, and she still likes her routines now.

I don't have the same freedom with DS but he's got himself into a loose routine and it really helps. Some babies just don't like to "go with the flow".

Agree with the others on here. I used the EASY method. At 5 months ds had 2-3 sleeps a day (9:30-11 then 2pm-3:30-4ish- I still remember the schedule, if the second nap was a bit short he'd have another around 5pm just 20 minutes) He slept 7-6:30 at night.

No he doesn’t really have a strict routine, I’m just going with the flow really. I don’t think I could do controlled crying. But I’m glad to know it worked for you. When he’s awake he’s generally a very happy baby, so at least it doesn’t affect his mood, it’s more when I’m attempting to feed him and put him to sleep he just seems to fight it. But by then you can tell he is very tired. Maybe I’ll try to introduce more of a routine.

What do you do when you go out during the day? I don’t like being stuck indoors all day so I try and get out and about. Would you time the outings according to naps, or let him have that nap in his pram?
Sometimes il go for a walk just so he does nap!

Thank you for the advice everyone

I think with my 2 I followed the idea of adding an hour's time between each sleep, and DC1 needed a nap an hour after waking for the day, say at 6:30 til 7:30, so then would do 2 hours awake then nap, say 9:30 to 10:30, then 3 hours awake, say 1:30 to 2:30, then 4 hours awake then bedtime routine (of course, he never slept through but it gave me something to aim for). This was very rough and obviously depending on length of nap was changeable, but it seemed to work for both DCs. The length of time between each nap gradually increased.

Neither would sleep in the house except on me so I timed it around walks to the shops or car journeys, and often would pack a blanket, flask and book, drive somewhere like the river or country park, get DC to sleep in the car and sit and wait til they were awake, then go for a walk, then try and time the journey back for the next nap.

Hi..... look up sleep debt! The more tired they get over time the less they seem to want to sleep. I recommend Hadley Seward of “Bon nuit baby” an American sleep consultant who has lots of tips on her website. You basically need to catch up on sleep more than you ever thought!! Then it’s possible to get into a good routine. So worth doing. I was in a mess with my sons sleep at 4 months so paid for two weeks personal help online ... was amazing and completely worth the money!! Within 3 days my son was sleeping 2 times a day and all night!!! Seriously it’s been amazing and he’s 2 now and he’s been a fab sleeper ever since! Xx

Download the app Huckleberry it's changed my life over the last week! You pop basic details in and how many naps a day they have. You then enter the start and stop times of their naps and it then suggests a "sweet spot" time for their next nap based on how long the last one was, how many they have a day and the time between naps. You can then subscribe if you want and they will analyze the sleep patterns and offer advice!
I was going out of my mind with 5.5 month old DS and was completely lost trying everything under the sun. Getting more and more frustrated trying to get him to nap it was awful. Now I feel a lot calmer and already he's sleeping a lot better and naps are as much of a struggle because I'm getting him down before he's overtired!
The sweet spot and sleep logging section is free to use so worth having a look to see if it would work for you

With my DS the signs of overtiredness he showed as a baby are still evident as a four year old, although they present in different ways. He seems to find it hard even now to understand when he’s tired, and his brain ramps up the activity - so yesterday he was talking 100mph about numbers, singing little rhymes, asking repeatedly ‘mummy do you want to play Octonauts?’ even though he was so very tired. When he was a baby, it was constantly moving, rolling around the room, blowing raspberries, that sort of thing.

We’ve had a gentle routine of bath, pyjamas, 2 stories and sleep since he was about 1, I don’t know what we’d have done without that. I might at some point try find some age appropriate yoga or something to try help him switch off!

I know it’s only been a few days and I’ve tried the two hourly thing. But for example His night sleep wasn’t so bad so woke up about three times which is his usual. So around 8 in the morning he woke up but started moaning, you could tell he was still tired. It takes me forever and I mean forever to put him to sleep, so he goes back down at 10am sleeps for about maybe 30 mins. But then just an hour later he’s cranky again and had to resettle him and now he’s feeding and I guess sleeping at the same time ( he always does this). He seems to have bad days and good days, but even though it does take me forever to put him to sleep, he won’t sleep for longer then 20 mins usually in the day and most of the times when I attempt to put him down he wakes up.

My aim for now is to just get him to sleep, putting him down can be a battle I fight later.

We are going away in a couple of weeks, and I’m starting to regret booking it. I fear he’s going to be a nightmare and im going to spend the majority of the holiday in the hotel trying to put him to sleep.

You need to put a nap routine in place just like their bedtime routine but shorter. So for us we go into the room, switch off the light, he then gets his dummy which he now only has for naps and bedtime, comforter is tucked under his arm and I say night night go to sleep and leave the room. It can be whatever you want but needs to be consistent.

Take a look at his sleep environment. We put blackout blinds up to keep the room as dark as possible ( got a travel one on amazon so take with us when we go anywhere else). We also use pink noise for naps. Apparently it's better than white noise.

I'm currently working on stretching out his naps but it's easier said than done as his are still so unpredictable, apparently their nap schedule settles down after the 6 month mark. Sometimes I'll leave him a few mins to see if it's just a moan he's having. Today he started crying half an hour into a nap, when I went in his eyes were still closed so I picked him up, gave him a cuddle and popped him back down without saying anything, he slept for another hour. Previously I would have gotten frustrated and just given up on the nap.

Again I highly recommend the Huckleberry app for predicting their nap times it's really helped me.

Thanks for the advice. I’ve downloaded the app now so will start to use it tomorrow, hoping it works!

I really hope it works for you too. A friend recommended it to me who used it on her 8 month old. My head was all over the place trying to track naps and gaps I between and nighttime sleep. This makes it so much easier and the sweet spots are working for us!

Again you have the option to subscribe after logging 3 days worth of sleep, at this point they ask you a load of questions, what you are trying to achieve ( for us it was less night wakings) and then give you a plan.

You can of course not subscribe but keep using the tracker and sweet spot suggestions for free! It's worth a shot and if anything it takes away some mental load that you can do without when you're exhausted!

Downloaded this app and using the free tracking part which I like and makes me realise how many times a night I have to get up! Would you say the extra stuff I’d worth paying for?

@Jellytotbot for me it was because I was lost and desperate. For us we wanted to reduce the amount of night wakings so it gave us a 5 week plan to help. It's addressing everything from naps to sleep environment to dummy dependency. There are FAQ sections for each task which really helps. It's £12.99 a month so for us even if I cancel now it only cost me that for a lot of advice. You can cancel anytime on the £12.99 tariff.

In the space of 2 weeks I've managed to reduce night wakings from about 10-12 to about 3. The last wake up is between 4-5 and he wants to come into my bed which I'm trying to avoid. I'm using their suggestions which overtime will remove this wake up but it might take weeks to break this habit. When I'm finished with this plan I might continue if we are still having massive sleep issues, they re-analyze the sleep tracked since the last plan and offer a new plan based on what you are trying to achieve.

@Fsult1 how are you getting on? Since we last spoke DS's sleep went to shit again so I finally decided to get rid of his dummy. 3 days in and he sleeps so much better and falls asleep quicker because he isn't screaming every few minutes for us to put it back in! Have you found the app of any help?

Hey thanks for checking in. Aww no I’m glad you’ve managed to sort it out. The app has helped in terms of knowing when to put him down for his nap, and he usually does fall asleep at the time the app says, so it’s quite accurate. However he still screams the house down when I attempt to put him down for his nap, but it doesn’t last as long as it used to. Can you think of a reason he does this? So it is getting better, albeit quite slowly. But I feel a lot calmer and less frustrated now so that’s always good!

Also another thing he never stays asleep for longer than 20 minutes. He’ll shoot up wide awake. This is during the day though, at night he’s a lot better.

20 mins is really short so he's not getting a full sleep cycle. I used a tip called the nap hour which meant leaving them in their cot for the full hour even if they are awake which seemed to help DS a little. His first and last nap of the day is only ever 40 mins but his afternoon nap now is 2 hours, before he would have only slept the 40 mins at lunchtime and would have had to go in and resettle to get him down for another 40 mins!

Would it be worth you sitting in on a nap (after he's fallen asleep so doesn't know you are there)? That way as soon as he stirs at the 20 mins mark you can sooth him and hopefully he doesn't wake up fully. If you do this a few times he should hopefully learn to sleep for longer stretches.

DS wakes at 4.30am on the button since we took his dummy away so tonight I've set an alarm for 4.15am to go in and gently but not fully wake him so he skips over 4.30, will do this for a few nights in the hopes it breaks the habit.

It's almost like you have to find a pattern and then find a way to break it without them realizing it's you doing it. Ninja mums 

Hi hope havent even gotten to Nina mum stage yet! I hold him while he naps because he will wake straight away if I put him down and it came to the point where him just getting some sleep was more important that teaching him to self settle. It’s just continued this way, and his naps still don’t last very long.