The 3am screams ... help!

[mandymummy]

I am new to mumsnet and posting and I am hoping some of you can help, so here goes:

My DD is nearly 9 months and really struggles with sleeping. For the last month and a half we have worked really hard with her and things are much much better, apart from the mornings. She wakes really early (which it seems lots of babies do) but it's the fact that she screams and screams and screams and we are at a loss as to what we can do to help her settle again, but also to address the cause of the crying (which we can not identify). She does this every morning.

Initially we worked out we thought she was hungry at 5am, so we started off asking her to sleep (or be resettled without food) until 5am, sadly this didn't work and she used to respond really well until 4am and would then scream, only sometimes resettling before waking for her 5am feed. So, we thought maybe she is hungry at 4am? So we moved her feed to 4 and now she has started waking up at 3am (which she didn't do before, and it's frighteningly regular), and screaming.

I don't want to move her feed earlier - primarily because I don't think she is hungry because previously she slept through this time. Also she tries to fall asleep on the breast when i feed her in the early hours, if i take her off before she is sleepy we are back to the screams. If she falls asleep whilst feeding she is awake 45 minutes later and nothing else will do apart from a feed to settle her. So, it feels that in feeding her I am making the problem worse, or at least only moving it by 45 minutes.

Our mornings tend to start about 5.10am when she wakes from a 45 minute sleep following her feed. The only way to settle her is to feed her again or start the day. Does anyone have any ideas? She sounds so tiny and distressed when she cries. Things are so much better than they were, but starting every morning at 3am with a screaming baby is horrible.

Have you tried massaging her tummy during her bedtime routine? Most babies have trouble digesting their food during the night and causes them to wake and scream. If shes nine months she should be sleeping through and not need night feeding at all. If you feed her in the night it becomes habit and will decrease her food intake during the day so your night times will get worse and worse.

I can try and talk you through massaging her tummy and it might help getting an aromatherapy blend, which is what I use

my dd did this waking at 3 screaming then she was wanting to play! i found playing with her for little while teething gel and milk did the trick!
Think it was just a phase as she doesnt do it any more good luck

I disagree that she should be sleeping through and not needing a night feed at her age. There is no should. My ds didn't sleep through regularly until after 12 months.

She may not actually need the night feed from the food point of view but just likes the comfort, so it is up to you to decide whether or not to feed her to settle her. Massage does sound like a good idea, how about soft music too? My ds likes the Classic FM music for babies CD when he is drifting off to sleep. I don't have many other suggestions except to offer my solidarity and assurance that this stage will pass.

fluffyanimal, just going on my experience, both of mine slept through from 7 - 7 from 10 weeks, then droped the dream feed (10pm) at 6 months. Obviously now and again they have little bleeps, thats how I started with the massage.

In a similar boat to you. It does sound like she's getting into a feeding-to-sleep association - which is a real pain in the neck. What's your settling routine like? Do you always do the same (even if extremely boring) thing when you put her down at bedtime? Can you repeat it, without swithcing on lights or doing anything exciting, at nighttimes? If you're breastfeeding, can you get your dp to settle her as he doesnt' smell of milk?

You might like to look at what I'm doing (not that I'm any authority, as I'm also asking for help!).

Thanks for all the ideas.

thanks quokka for the suggestion of the tummy massage. we do already do a baby massage as part of her bedtime routine and do burp her after her evening feed, so hopefully we have that one covered. having said that i was extra careful this evening to make sure i did her tummy massage properly!

thanks onetanother, good to know someone else knows what it's like - i do hope you are right and its a phase!

hello fluffyanimal: I think you are right about the comfort thing. the music idea is an interesting idea and certainly one we will have a think about! Once again knowing someone else knows what this is like helps.

hello prettycandles - you are right we have an incredibly predictable night routine. she has a bath, a massage, a story, a feed and a cuddle and then into her cot sleepy but awake. every night, exactly the same and always at the same time. it works through to 3am. If she wakes before it usually takes a 10 minute settle talking to her or occasionally picking her up and returning her to the cot when she stops crying. On the subject of the feeding-to-sleep association we know it all too well and until a month and a half ago it was the only way she would settle - i was up between five and eleven times a night and it was brutal. we are no longer in that place and are really proud of her. however everything that happens after 3am does make me worry that feeding her down is one of the problems with the mornings. thanks for the link too - interesting reading.

someone else has suggested introducing a dream feed late at night so hopefully eliminating the 3am from being hunger related. I have never dream fed her, mainly because she always, always wakes up, that and she is new to sleeping through any length of time. so any ideas or thoughts on if this is a good idea would be appreciated. also any tips too - i intend to try and bottle feed her breast milk.

thanks for the support everyone, really appreciated.

I think it's probably a good idea to dreamfeed her. We're theorising that it will be easier for ds to sleep through if he learns that he doesn't get fed if he wakes during the night, so, rather than wait for him to wake for the first feed (10-11pmish) we dreamfeed him about 30min before we would normally expect him to wake. That way he'll get a feed without asking for it.

mandymummy - I am not sure how bottle feeding breastmilk will help you. If anything it will just add the hassle of expressing into the pot.

Is she eating solids as well?

What time does she go to bed at night?

Have you tried letting her breastfeed to sleep for her bedtime feed? Perhaps her feed is being shortened. I breastfed all my babies to sleep after their night time bath. I do not necessarily agree that breastfeeding to sleep is a bad thing.

Does she need a story at nine months? Does that not stimulate her?

Sorry for the questions but I found that a bath and bedtime breastfeed to sleep did the trick.

If they did wake, which wasn't a regular occurrence, I did take them into bed, fix them on and then I went back to sleep. I could never have started the day at 5am

listen to mears. she is a wise mummy.

yes mears is right about bedtime routine - very important. We do bath, massage, story, cuddle then to bed. Turn the lullaby light on and leave the room for them to fall asleep by themselves. Mine are both in the same room ds1 is 3yrs and ds2 is 17 months.

I use a sleeep blend to rub their bellies my aromatherapy friend does for me. Have reccomended it to other on here and they found it worked, but you have to massage it in correctly. Rub clockwise circles, with occaisional downward strokes on the right to their groin. I do it quite firm, and they both love it. AS we moved here a week ago I couldn't find the oil as soon as I did their sleep impoved I kid you not. My dh was very sceptical of it but even he does the massage when he does bedtime.

Anyway I hope last night was better for, its all part of being a mum - you can remind her when shes older its mothers

and when its mother day - need my! morning coffee

Well folks - all is a bit different today! Different good that is. I did dream feed her (bottled breast milk) and she didn't wake at 3 at all - she then woke as normal and not screaming just after 4 for a feed, then resettled and started the day without a scream at all! I feel like a different person today for not having to listen to my girl scream. I just hope now that it wasn't fluke and i can express enough milk to give her!

Thanks for all the responses, much appreciated.

Mears thanks for your sugestion about feeding her to sleep. I think its great for those it does work for and really respect that this is good advice for some people. please understand i am in no way against feeding to sleep. however for us it sadly doesn't work: from birth till a month and a half ago she didn't sleep well - we were awake with her between 5 and 11 times every night and the only way we stopped that was to make sure she is awake when she goes in her cot. I think your point about cutting her feed short is a really valid one, but the price is too high in terms of number of wakes and distress caused by them, to make it worth doing for us. I understand and appreciate this is not the case for everyone. The idea that her feed being cut short makes me think more about the dream feed with the advantage that she isn't awake and therefore doesn't look for a feed next time she wakes. To be honest I feel very sad that feeding her to sleep doesn't work but I am glad that it works for you and others, that's great.

It's great you can feed them in bed and sleep, another thing that i tried very hard to do but found it wasn't working for us. this is however not a critism of co-sleeping, just something personal to us. I honestly believe things would have been different for us if we had started out properly co-sleeping.

Your point about the story is an interesting one - her going to bed pattern has been the same for a while now and we are reluctant to change it because for us i think it does work: she will settle after her cuddle and sleep to about 3am most nights. However it is certainly worth considering if we do want to swap things around in the future.

Your comment about expressing is true too - it is a hasstle and an added pressure, but i wake her if i feed her breast and last night is the first and only time i have dream fed her without waking her up. i am off to look at the breast feeding advice pages now, as i am worried about exprressing enough milk for her (i never have been very prolific with expressing despite a good pump and lots of patience)

As to starting at 5am, it's hard but not so hard - basically this house starts at 5.50am anyway owing to my husbands alarm going off for him to get up for work. We are then able to all start the day with a breakfast together (yes my daughter is on solids - and very much enjoying them!) and when he goes to work my daughter has a play and we usually get dressed and another play then she has her morning nap. It works for us, just because of my husbands early start!

One last thing mears - i love that you are referred to as "wise mummy", it seems to me that really is something to be proud of!

Thanks for the advice about the aromatherapy oils quokka, from your description i think we are doing the massage correctly which is reassuring. A while ago i asked a friends husband to mix up some oils for us, but he was busy so never did and i haven't chased it up - it's a good point and one i should chase up!

Well, here's hoping its another good night.

I'm so happy for you and glad you didn't have a screaming baby to deal with - it makes a hige difference doesn't it. Let me know if you have trouble getting a good sleep blend, my friend is a mner and also can send it in the post after talking to you over the phone about what babies needs are. I think she only charges about £6or 8. Not trying to do a hard sell shes there if you need it. Goodluck and well done!

meant to say have you tried a warm flannel around your boob while expressing?

Thanks quokka, i will contact my friends husband again but may ask for your help with the oil if he is still busy. I decided to get one mixed as DD possibly has a nut allergy, in which case i may be in touch again soon!

The lukewarm flannel i haven't tried - i have just started a thread over in the feeding section for tips, as i am worried, so that seems like a good one to try!

I really do feel much happier for not hearing her scream. We are having such a lovely day too which is great! Hope you have a good one too!

Glad it's working for you.

My dd could sometimes dreamfeed on the breast, but neither of my sons would/will. They are either awake and feeding, or asleep and not feeding. For them the dreamfeed had/has to be by bottle.

I got confused last night and fed ds2 at about 2.30am, instead of letting dh try to resettle him with the water. But he did then go through to 6am - yay!

Glad things worked out better for you last night. Try not to get too worried about the expressing otherwise it will become difficult for you. Rememeber you do not need to express a feed in one go. You can just express a couple of ounces at a time and it soon mounts up. hand expressing is really easy once you have the knack, and fast. However, if you plan to use a pump it is good to keep switching sides as the flow of milk slows. As you express from one breast you will let down from the other. massage your breasts towards the nipple before you start. Do you leak at all? You can collect that milk in a breast shell too.

Hopefully this will be a phase that passes shorlty. Good luck

I am so pleased - two more good nights! My DD actually slept till 5.10am before waking for her feed this morning in a lovely mood - this feels so much better!

The expressing still feels difficult, but i know the more of an issue i make of it the harder it will be. Hopefully more sleep and rest will help too. My DD is certainly much happier which is fabulous!

Thanks for all of your support - really needed and appreciated, just knowing there are people out there who have an idea what we are going through has made a huge difference to how i feel!