Sleep Training - good books or advice

[Philippat]

DH has decided it's time to sleep train dd!

Now, admittedly, she is 9 months and she's never been a great sleeper. I can handle it better than dh so for the last 3-ish months he's been sleeping down on the sofa and I've been in the bedroom with dd. I did have a bit of a moan yesterday after being up at 10.30pm, 11.30pm, 12am, 4am, but that was an unusually bad night (last night she went through until 6am)!

Anyway, he's probably right, after all we are both trying to cram full time jobs and looking after dd into not enough hours so more sleep would be nice. Not to mention sleeping together again. And my employer would probably prefer me to be awake enough to tackle things other than looking on mumsnet!

So, advice on how we should do it, or books we should read, please! He's stubborn enough to just let her cry but I couldn't do that - 15 minutes is my limit.

For the record, her cot is in our bedroom and house is too small to change that (although sofa does open out to double bed so we can sleep elsewhere!). She's bottle fed (b/f until 6 months) and eating a reasonable amount. Water does not settle her! She's a big old wriggler and moves around a lot in the cot so putting toys in is difficult. She's in a sleeping bag.

I have been lucky and never had to sleep train but I heard many times that Richard Ferber is good.
My only advice to you would be : if you are going to do this.... do it well otherwise you are wasting your time and hers ! Putting it nicely : do it and get it over with.... too many mum start and after day 2 give up without nay progress and 2 bad nights !

Good luck.

For what it's worth I suspect she wakes out of habit not hunger or being too cold. Does she eat in the night ?

"The No-Cry Sleep Solution" by Elizabeth Pantley. Available from Amazon. A must for those who do not have the guts for controlled crying.

My dd is 6 mos and is now almost sleeping through. EP helped me understand why she was waking so much, and what to do about it. I wouldn't say results are quick, but there was a definite improvement within a week. I think her most useful idea so far as been EARLY BEDTIME. We're working fulltime too, and were keeping dd up till 9-10 pm thinking she would be more tired and would sleep better. NOT TRUE!!!

Ferber is also about CC...but babies need to be in bed by 7 if you want them to sleep well... unless they can get up late... and as you have discovered it does not matter how late you put themto sleep. This is actually one of the better things from Gina Ford she hammers down to the parents that the more tired a baby is - the poorer his sleep !

We did CC with ds when he was 12 months old. It was hell for us at the time, but oh so much better for everybody in the long run. Pupuce is right - you need to be determined and firm if any sleep training is going to work.

BTW, both of my children have gone to bed at 7pm since they were 4 months old, and IMHO it's done all of us a lot of good!

Keeping to a 7/7.15pm bedtime has been brought home to us in the last couple of weeks - it really does make a difference: the later in bed, the earlier he wakens and the grumpier we all are. He's a Gina baby and has been going to bed at 7pm since coming home from hospital but had had a few late (8pm!!) nights recently for various reasons and it is so different. We're being really strict about it and he appreciates it (as much as he can!).

Philippat- considering that you wrote that you can't let your child cry for more than 15 minutes.... I thought I should add this... you are not IMO sleep training her for your benefit but for hers.... and mainly for hers. You are doing her a favour by teaching her to sleep longer and of a more restful sleep. You will also see the difference daytime I bet !
This is not chinese torture.

Hi, Philippat, Sympathy and cyber hugs winging their way to you!! I tried controlled crying when my d.s was 7 months (there is a long thread about it in archives) and it was partially successful. I waited until my d.h. was away for a week, resigned myself to no sleep (but at least no criticism!) and expected c.c to take about 3 or 4 nights. Over a week later, he was still waking up quite a few times every night, but I stuck to my guns and after lots of patting and crying, he did manage to sleep through the night. But then, he began teething, he got a cold and the whole process began agian.

The good thing is that although he is still waking up at about 5 for a b/f, he does go to bed at about 8ish and has 2 regular daytime naps, so he is in a routine, which was missing before. He sometimes has bad nights where he also wakes at about 1ish, and often I am too tired to spend time patting him back to sleep and end up feeding him (which is counterproductive). The fact that we have a routine is making life much easier, though as before 7 months, he was fed or rocked to sleep all the time: now I can confidently leave him to cry for 15 mins or so if I know he is tired and ready to sleep.

Cannot recommend any books, but lots of people on this site swear by the Ferber book in particular.

This probably isn't much help but good luck anyway

sleep training isn't always awful. we did it with ds when he was just 8months and it was so easy compared to our fears. He cried for 20 mins max at any one waking, and it got less and less. Now he never wakes in the night unless he is wet or has a bad dream. He is much sunnier in the day too. It really was worth it, and he was ready for it so it went fine. I did find having him sleeping in another room was essential, as having us in sight made him cry much more vigorously and be more awake. I didn't give water and, after an initial check for wetness, head stuck in bars etc(!) we just didn't go in, as that made him cry more too. I think you need to tackle it together so sleep together in the sofabed and take it in turns to check or just to encourage each other not to give in. At 9months she won't need water or milk in the night anymore and really needs her sleep IMO, and so do you. The Ferber book is useful for explaining sleep but I didn't stick to the charts. We did one check then left him. He loves us just as much now as he did before too. I feel we have got our lives back and I am a better mother for not feeling exhausted and resentful of ds for waking us up. I don't know how you can work like this. It would kill me. Good luck

I think it is Richard Ferber who says that you should leave a baby to cry as long as necessary provided that you are sure it is not in danger. I think he also says that if they wake during the night you shouldn't even go in to check on them. This can be very difficult for some people but I don't find it too hard until DD wakes her brothers or gets so loud that she might wake the neighbours. I do go back to CC whenever we seem to have a problem and it generally works. Unfortunately though DD woke at 3.15 am when she fell out of bed, I'd already been tossing and turning for about a hour before that, then she eventually ended up in our bed and didn't go to sleep for at least another hour.

I couldn't envisage getting DS to bed at 7pm. No matter how tired he is or how early he goes to bed he never sleeps for more than 9 to 10 hours (but he almost never wakes in the middle of this period either) - so a 7pm bedtime means getting up at about 4am. A 9pm bedtime and up at 6am seems a bit more civilised somehow.

And to be honest I'd rather have him up during the evening than have to be up at 4 - especially as I'm at work full time, have to leave in the morning at 7 anyway, and would only get to see him for an hour in the evening if he was in bed by 7.

GillW, don't mean to be stupid but have you actually tried putting him to bed earlier? I found putting my son to bed later just meant he cut his sleep down and got up the same time. 7pm or 8.30pm , he still woke up early. In fact, he seemed to wake up even earlier with a late bedtime. At the mo we're going through a fantastic 7.15 to 7 stage He even 7.25 the other morning. Bliss

Thanks guys,

Printed out oxocube's previous thread to read on the bus home (very useful seeing what others have been through) and I've ordered Pantley & Ferber (sounds like a very dodgy law firm) - lots of 4am reading for me and dh!

Talking it through with dh (isn't funny how you just battle on through and not stop and think!), we've come to the conclusion she's forgotten how to put herself to sleep (if she ever learned) - we've been guilty of feeding her to sleep or driving her around in the car to sleep, particularly recently. As time and sleep deprivation has gone on it's just been easier to get her to sleep without tackling it. HOWEVER, thinking about it, I'd rather tackle cc at bedtime than when she wakes again at 12 or 4!

So, last night, we started bathtime half an hour earlier at 6.30pm and she was fed and in bed awake at 7pm. Cried for about half an hour but I and then dh sat with her and stroked her head and eventually she worked out what to do to go to sleep!

She made it through until just before 6am which is not bad, probably as good as we'll get for now, at least until she gets mobile. But she was grumpy and STARVING when she woke up, gulped that milk down in record time. So as usual I am a bit concerned about what I'm feeding her - I've wanted to postpone wheat in her diet until 12 months, but might it be making a difference? She gets a decent amount of rice and potatoes but is unimpressed by other grains.

GillW - as you don't say how old your child... maybe I'll be wrong... but I agree with Aloha... put him to bed at 7 and you will see that he will sleep between 11 and 12hours - unless you have tried this for a few days already and can confirm that this is not true... I know many people who didn't believe this until they tried it (and there are plenty of Mumsnet stories to confirm it like Harrysmum on this thread. Putting a child to bed earlier DOES NOT mean they get up earlier (quite the contrary!)

Philppat - what about millet and quinoa as grains ? or oats ? mixed in yogourt or milk. Why IYO would wheat make a difference ?

pupuce - Tried millet (quinoa appears to be completely unobtainable in this neck of the woods!) - spat it out! Likewise lentils - threw them up (tried both several times at intervals). Just tried corn this week with a bit of success, but I won't always get time to prepare that. Oats in baby porridge she will have so long as it's prepared with water, but she seems to get bored of that if it's every day. I guess I'm just worried about her getting enough carbohydrate to see her through the night. Other slow-release energy options like bananas she hates too! You might have gathered she's a bit of a fussy eater...

Are there no health food shops in your area ??? Quinoa is more and more easily available as it is an excellent food ! Tried mixing any of these grains with a fruit she likes ? BTW DD is also a bit fussy with grains so I know what you mean.
Have you tried avocado ? rice (not baby!) ?
What does she like ?

Ooops, Pupuce. Have just seen this and am feeling bad as I am fresh from criticising quinoa on another thread! Horrors- I'm sure I just cooked it all wrong... Can it really be tasty?

well, Holland & Barratt is all and round here peppermint tea and dried apricots are considered exotic fare (what can I say, I live in Wolverhampton!). Do you know of any mail order?
I'l try avocado (can't stand it myself so have not bothered so far but I know that's bad!). She loves rice (home cooked, never had baby, thank god it freezes well!), most fruits, plain yoghurt, quite a lot of veges and many meat and fish but other carbos she's not good at. And lumps are still a bit of a problem!

well, Holland & Barratt is all and round here peppermint tea and dried apricots are considered exotic fare (what can I say, I live in Wolverhampton!). Do you know of any mail order?
I'l try avocado (can't stand it myself so have not bothered so far but I know that's bad!). She loves rice (home cooked, never had baby, thank god it freezes well!), most fruits, plain yoghurt, quite a lot of veges and many meat and fish but other carbos she's not good at. And lumps are still a bit of a problem!

What about bulghar wheat? Not sure whether allowed at that age but it's nice and I've used it almost as I would have done mince (if I ate mince) in shepherds pie with lots of veg.

aloha/pupuce - he's just about 11 months, and he really doesn't seem to be able to sleep for more than 9 or 10 hours at a time, regardless of what time he goes to bed (and yes going to bed earlier does mean waking earlier in his case). Even travelling transatlantic (either way) with the associated time changes, etc, he's never, ever, slept for more than 10 hours. Maybe as he gets older and becomes able to go for longer without being supplied with food he'll sleep for longer, as he's always starving when he wakes up, but for now I can only assume that that's all the sleep he can manage in one stretch as it's also really unusual for him to sleep for less than 9 hours. Once he does wake after 9-10 hours that's it for the night - he simply isn't tired enough to want to go back to sleep.

Really it isn't that unusual - it's only in the UK that we have this "all babies should be in bed by 7" mentality - go almost anywhere else in the world and you'll find that is very much the minority view, not the accepted case.

I need the evenings to myself just to keep what little sanity I have left. I really resent the fact that DS1 stays up a bit later these days now that he is older. I'm such a misery guts aren't I?

I seem to have a very strange dd. If she goes to sleep before 8, she will definitely wake and want another feed, and then will be a nightmare to get off again. If she goes to sleep after 8, she will still want another feed but ususally goes to sleep okay, but will wake early. If (like last night) she decides that she will stay awake until 11.30, she sleeps until I decide it's getting ridiculously late and wake her for a feed. (today it was 11.0 a.m.)

What can I do to bring her bedtime forward?

GillW - agree about 7 being a British thing if I compare to my continental friends but they also get up later than 7 !!!! So it is still 12 hours (or 11hours in some cases).

Sorry GillW if the early bedtimes didn't work for you but I have one other suggestion, if your baby goes to bed at around 7 - 7.30 and wakes up around 5am you could try a bit of controlling crying and see if your son will go back to sleep. I only say this because this is what happens from time to time with my ds - he wakes up and if we go to him he appears absolutely full of beans and rolls and kicks and sticks his finger up our noses etc but if we don't go in he grizzles a bit then goes back to sleep. Of course, if you are happy as you are please ignore! Ionesmum, I found a regular bedtime routine leading to a 7pm bedtime EVENTUALLY worked (took quite a while). I just felt I really needed my evenings if I was to feel human again. Even read some books!

I'm with GillW. Not all babies sleep the same amount, just like not all adults need the same amount of sleep. I once calculated with a friend that I slept on average 40 hours a week less than she did. I would guess that my son takes after me in his need for less sleep. I put him to bed at 9pm because it is convenient for my schedule. Perhaps people on the continent put their babies to bed later because as pupuce said they just keep later hours. Anyway, it works for us as my dh and I like eating and spending our evening with our ds. Since I need so little sleep, I have plenty of time after he goes to bed to chat on mumsnet for hours!