I'm getting it all wrong

[BabyBobbins32]

I'm feeling like a pretty crappy mum at the moment. This is my second so i should have it a bit more sussed this time no?!
My 5 month old's day time feed/sleep routine is a bit of a nightmare and I have a strong suspicion I'm just getting all the timing wrong. She feeds every 2-2.5hrs in the day (will usually do a good stretch of c6-10hrs at night). I feed her not because she is acting hungry but just to try and fit it in between her naps....
Naps...she is awake about 1.5hrs in between (only 1hr 15 for first nap and 2-3hrs for bedtime) and was napping for 45mins-1hr...she is now screaming her head off when I put her down and only having 30mins max! She used to self settle for all her naps beautifully but not at all now! She is also point blank refusing 4th nap even feeding her to sleep is hit and miss but wakes too early from 3rd nap to drop it.
It's awful as I'm having to leave my 3year old alone downstairs while I settle her sister or she comes up with me and sits watching her iPad really quietly which is just rubbish.
I keep reading about babies going 3-4hrs between feeds and worrying I'm causing all the issues by feeding too often just to try and fit it in. But am worried if I don't then she'll wake through hunger from nap or start waking more at night! Am also reading about babies doing 2-3hrs awake at this age and again my monkey seems to struggle with 1.5hrs.
Anyone got any suggestions of where I'm going wrong or can share their 5month olds routine?
Really appreciate as I'm really struggling! Thanks

You're not going wrong, babies are all different. Mine used to feed that often but also all through the night too.

It's probably the back end of the 4 mo sleep regression.

Sounds like she wants to drop that 4th nap though

My LO is 7 months and eats every 2-3 hours and her awake time is only 2-2.5 hours !

At 5 months mine were feeding every 2 hours day and night (sometimes more often through the night), and only napped when on my breast. I think you’re doing ok!

Naps...she is awake about 1.5hrs in between (only 1hr 15 for first nap and 2-3hrs for bedtime) and was napping for 45mins-1hr...now having 30mins

I've just tried to work out your current timings. It seems to me that you've stretched awake times past what they were (around 90m) and as a result have an over tired baby.

Say baby's day is 6.45am-
6.45 wake
(1h15 awake time)
8.00-8.30am nap
(1h30 awake time)
10.00-10.30am nap
(1h30 awake time)
12.00-12.30pm nap
(1h30 awake time)
2.00-2.30pm nap
(1h30 awake time)
4.00-4.30pm nap
(2-3h awake time)
6.30-7.30 bedtime

I'm counting 5 naps per day being needed there. It's because naps are now shorter.

When you were getting 45m-1h naps then 4 naps per day is reasonable (9.15-10am, 11.30-12.30pm, 2-2.45pm, 4.15-5.15pm, 7.15-8.15 bed).

But now naps are shorter, keep awake time the same (or shorter if needed) and you should end up needing more naps per day.

If you've been trying to keep 4 naps per day, rather than focusing on awake time and having as many naps as needed, you'll end up with a (very) over tired baby who is difficult to get to sleep and finds it difficult to stay asleep.

@FATEdestiny I haven't been trying to stick to 4 naps that's just what she was naturally having (but now isn't!).
When she was napping for 45mins-1hr 4naps worked well. Since she's been screaming at nap time and napping for 30mins the awake time has actually been longer as it's taken so long to get her to sleep.
I understand what you're saying about concentrating on awake time rather than number of naps but I don't know what it is no matter how hard I try watching for sleepy signs, checking awake time not too long she will not have more than 4 naps...she did the same thing when dropped the 5th nap too, just refused whatever time it was.
Just wondering if I'm getting the timing way off or she's just going through something.

Sorry I've just realised I've said her awake time is 1.5hrs but that's when I put her down, it's actually more like 1hr 45 by time she actually falls asleep.

Her timings were like this:
Awake: 7am
(Awake:1hr 15)
Nap: 8.15-9am
(Awake 1hr 45)
Nap: 10.45 - 11.30am
(Awake 1hr 45)
Nap: 1.15 - 2pm
(Awake 1hr 45)
Nap: 3.45 - 4.15pm (almost always only 30mins)
(Awake 2-3hrs)
Bedtime: 6.15-7.15pm

Thanks

But she's now doing half hour (or less) naps. What does her day look like now?

Oh, and if you're getting half hour naps, I would not expect any more than 90 minutes awake (that's from waking up to being fully back to sleep - so settling time included in that 90 minutes maximum).

I would be trying to settle my baby 60 minutes after waking from a half hour nap. With the use a that awake time in total (inc settling time) was somewhere between 60-75 minutes (depending on how easily baby settled).

@FATEdestiny
I hear what you're saying, maybe I need to stop waiting for sleepy signs after short nap and just go for a much shorter awake time, e.g. put down after 1hr like you said.
Thank you! I will give it a go tomorrow

Terrible day today...took 2hrs to settle her for one of her naps so was awake for 3hrs (not good for one who struggles with 1.5hrs!)!! Ahhhh!! After waking she was then miserable sobbing her little heart out, was awful.
Not sure where I'm going wrong?!!
She used to sleep so well, I know they have the 4months regression but thought I'd got through that as she had a huge wobble around 4months day and night and we got it back on track but I've tried everything I can think of this time!
Anyone else's little one doing this?
Any advice?
Thanks

My 5 month old goes 2.15-2.30 in between naps. Do you think your LO is under tired when you try to put her down to nap? Have you tried taking her out in the buggy around the 1.30 mark to see when she'll actually fall asleep? That's how I found my DS 'sweet spot'!

My DS bedtime is 7pm until 6.30/7am and he has 3 naps a day totalling 2.30-3hours of sleep time. Ideally he has a long lunchtime nap, a 45 min nap in the morning and a power nap around 4pm. It's a bit hit and miss with the lengths but but we usually manage to make it work.

However he will not blooming feed more frequently than 4 hours during the day so I'm still giving him that extra bottle at around 3-4am 😑

@Floozymum wow sounds like you have it cracked, well done that's so good!
Unfortunately my little one hates sleeping in the buggy! I took her out last week thinking I might be able to walk her through the 30minute wake up...and she wouldn't even go off in the first place! 😩 she hates sleeping anywhere but in her cot really...even in the car is a struggle sometimes!
I did wonder whether maybe she needed a longer awake time...in the last week when she's really struggled to go off and I've resorted to rocking her she often finally gave in around the 2hr mark so it could be 2hrs is the right time but she seems so so tired before that I just don't know.
Maybe I'll try the opposite of what I did today which was trying to get her down earlier and see if I need to stretch her longer instead!
Thanks for your advice

Ahh my DS used to hate sleeping in his buggy, many times I've had to practically run home with a screaming child. It kind of just clicked one day and he voluntarily fell asleep!!! But he still won't ever nap for more than 45 mins in the buggy!

Hopefully the longer awake time will help? Good luck!

It's getting worse! Having to settle her for every nap/bedtime now either rocking or feeding to sleep...worked so hard from day 1 not to create bad habits and to teach her to self settle and now having to do it for every sleep...and then get to g 30minutes...wouldn't be so bad if she was my first but I'm literally getting no time for my 3year old. 😩😥😥

I take that back...just had a 15minutes nap so not even 30 now!!! Feel like the biggest mummy failure right now!

Self settling is developmental

Rocking or feeding are normal, natural things to do

Why is it a bad habit?

@arbrighton I just don't want to get her used to something that requires me being there to settle her as I don't want to be doing that in the middle of the night or for every nap as it requires me leaving my 3year old alone to do that. She also suffers really badly from reflux and so feeding her to sleep I always find is awful for her stomach and she almost always throws up badly afterwards.
I'm sure self settling is developmental but she was doing it absolutely fine up until a few weeks ago so just wondering why she's lost the ability?

Babies change. Their sleep/feeding habits change all the time. Sometimes it’s just a phase, sometimes it’s a longer term thing. You think you’ve got them in a routine and bam! it changes again. That’s normal. Maybe your first child was a bit more predictable, but that doesn’t mean this one will be unfortunately.

Lack of dummy may be your problem.

A bit late to get a baby to take a dummy at 5 months, but certainly worth a try.

Aside from that, you're immediate problem is baby is chronically overtired and so getting to sleep and staying asleep is getting harder and harder. Focus, for now, on "Any Sleep, Any How" to get baby out of the over tired cycle.

That involves both helping baby get to sleep and also helping baby to stay asleep. I would suggest using a bouncy chair for naps, with a dummy if possible.

After 1h from being awake and having ensured baby has been fed and we'll winded, put baby into bouncer with a dummy. Sit on the sofa (playing/interacting with your toddler) with the bouncer at your feet and use your foot to bounce baby.

Bounce relentlessly. Don't stop. Keep the tempo the same, keep going. Do. Not. Stop. Reinsert dummy as required. While baby is so over tired, bounce throughout the nap to help baby stay asleep as long as possible.

@FATEdestiny thanks for your suggestions. I'm not too keen on starting a dummy but I get what you're saying about try and get her to sleep in any way I can just to get her to catch up on sleep. She sleeps really well at night so not too bad I don't think but day is still awful!

Had a brilliant day yesterday she settled herself for all her naps and did 2 x 45min and 1 x 1.5hrs it was great....today she is the worst she has ever been. Screaming her head off, rocking her to sleep but can't put her down as she wakes up wide awake again and screams. My poor 3 year old has spent most of the day in a dark room with me while I try and get baby to sleep! I just don't get the difference in the days, I must be getting it so far wrong with timing or something. Only other thing is whether it's teeth as she seemed less chewy and bothered yesterday (good sleep) and is really chewy and miserable today (bad sleep).

All I know is I've been in tears about 5 times today and it's only lunchtime. Feel like he worst mum ever!

Oh I had the problem with panicking about self settling! I also worked very hard to get my DS to self settle, which he was. Then all of a sudden a couple of weeks ago he decided he'd only have a bottle if half asleep, so I was feeding to sleep for every nap and bedtime. I was like all that hard work! I obviously continued to do it in order to get him to feed (and sleep) and after a week he gradually started taking a bottle whilst awake and went back to self settling. Saying that though, sometimes he needs cuddling to sleep, sometimes feeding, other times he wants to sleep on our bed, but he can still self settle so I'm kind of more relaxed about it now. He also is grumbling this week with his teeth so I've been relying on calpol and a dummy again!

Honestly I've spent many days crying in the past out of frustration that I'd spend 45 minutes trying to get him to sleep for him to wake up screaming 15 minutes later. For your own sanity I'd use whatever technique needed to get your DD to sleep, if she is teething she probably will need more help. I feel your pain!

@Floozymum thank you, that's so good to hear I'm not alone! Also good to hear it improved!
I don't really mind rocking or feeding her to sleep, I enjoy the cuddles it's just having to spend that long in a dark room with my 3 year old either on her own or sat next to me watching iPad...major mummy guilt!
I do think it might be teeth...just wish the flippin thing would come through...can't even tell which tooth as all her gums feel bumpy and she is chewing on all parts of her gum...keeps biting me (with gums) when feeding so I do think that's a major factor. Fingers crossed it pops through soon and we get a vaguely normal routine back!