Help with 3 year old sleep please!!

[Rn1986]

Sorry this is a long one, come here through desperation, first post so bear with.....
My little boy is 4 in a week, behind with speech (seeing all relevant professionals). We've never had any routines in our house as me and dad work shifts and have alot of days off together, therefore we go on alot of days out, so bedtime routines have never happened, which we were fine with, both quite laid back, happy to just keep plodding.
He's been sleeping in our bed for the last year, he was poorly one night so slept in our bed then never went back. His bedtimes have always been variable, between 8pm-11pm! Mostly closer to 10-11pm.
He's starting school in September so trying to get him into a routine now so he is going to bed earlier and self waking earlier (currently wakes up at 8.30am!).
But its a nightmare, for e.g. yesterday went to nursery and had no daytime nap, so should have been shattered come 8pm. No, we had all blinds down quiet, started bedtime at 7.30, tv had been off all afternoon, hadn't had his tablet at all yesterday (all done to see if it helped with bedtime) and he was chattering away for 3 hours!!! Finally fell to sleep at 11pm!!
Tonight tried a different approach, again no tv or tablet, went upto bed at 8.30pm, I lay on his bedroom floor with him and kept saying bedtime, he was having none of it and again has only just gone to sleep, at 10.30! He did have an hour's sleep this afternoon, but really don't think it's the nap stopping him as on days he doesn't nap he still won't go to sleep!
He's our first (and last!) So in hindsight yes I would have had a routine from day one, however too late for that now and so blaming myself for being so easy going for 4 years as now it's come back and bit me on the bum!
Tried all the reading to him etc it just doesn't work!
Any suggestions welcome.
Oh just to say we use the bedroom as punishment when he is naughty, so I don't really like putting him in his bedroom and leaving him to cry because i dont want him to see bedtime as a punishment.

So he’s gone from 11pm the first night you tried this to 10:30 the second night? Sounds ok to me because it’s improving. Keep doing it and in a few weeks he’ll gradually get to the bedtime you want. He’s had no particular routine all his life til now, he’s not going to get into one quickly. Just keep doing what you’re doing.

Ah no alas, I've just heard his little voice from his bedroom sigh, seems he's getting later 😂.

Hmm, you might want to read up on bedtime fading/gradual fading - basically the idea is that you put them to bed with a routine that is timed to finish about the time they fell asleep the previous night, in the hope that they'll get used to falling asleep at the end of the routine. Then once they're used to falling asleep at the end of the routine you gradually move it forward 10-15 minutes at a time.

I would also strongly suggest you reconsider using his bedroom as punishment as that alone will probably give him negative associations with his bedroom even without leaving him to cry. Much better to make it a place where you do nice calm things in the daytime and so a place he's relaxed about spending time in.

I think going from 10-11pm to 8pm is a bit of an ask when it is so light outside and hot.

Mine are going to bed around 9-9.30 at the moment (9, 6 and 4) as it is just too hot and light for them to settle any earlier. With only a few weeks left of term I am not sweating it. There is plenty of time between now and the start of term to get him in a routine.

Change the punishment location, we use the hallway as there is not much to do on time out there. Just in case he has a negative association with his bedroom.

You need to pick a routine and stick with it. It will get better, but you need to give it time. Evening walks or outdoor play time in this weather are good to tire them out after dinner followed by bath, teeth, story, bed. Once you have the routine in place and it is working at the usual bedtime move the bedtime back by half an hour until you get to the desired time.

Never thought that about the bedroom thing so thanks for that! Also good to know mine isn't the only late settler, maybe it is the weather having an impact! Going to try and chill out about it all!

You've made a good start and there's lots of good advice above.
-To make it happen, you will have to make this your absolute priority so plan days out/activities to fit your new schedule. Sadly, the start of school is often the end of spontaneity anyways.

• find a new punishment place
• keep to your new evening activities: no tablet at least 1hr before bed
• play the long game: it will take a few weeks to alter his schedule so you are right to start on it now.
• plan for changes in steps of only 30min so aiming for 10pm this week. Thus, start putting on pj's by 9pm so you can read 9:30 - 10
• if you/partner is able, start waking him earlier - again just 30min earlier per week to arrive at a convenient waking time by September. As an example, we try to leave the house at 8:30 so are usually up by 7 at the latest. My DDs get into pjs anytime after 7:30pm and bedtime is 8-9pm
• do explain to him what you are doing and why, otherwise it might all seem a bit arbitrary to him; if he's ready to start school, he's ready to help you make these changes.

Good luck and hang in there!